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Post by Ripley on May 7, 2017 3:15:39 GMT -5
Carol finally left her seclusion at The Kingdom (The Comfort House) and rejoined the fight against Negan and The Saviors when we last saw her. She hasn't seemed to resolve all of her fears and issues, but the show may choose to just skip that as so many threads are left tangled from season to season. What hopes, desire and ideal plotlines do you want to see for Carol in season 8? I don't mean Caryl since we already have topics for that of course, but In general, I mean. (Caryl isn't off limits here, but this thread isn't primarily about Caryl ) What I want to see for Carol in season 8 is some appreciation of her and the rebuilding of relationships from the ASZ gang. For instanced, I'd like to see Rosita or Tara or Michonne or Rick or Maggie, Carl etc., hug her and welcome her back home. To tell or show her that she has been missed and they are glad she has returned for instance. Rick appreciating Carols strengths, tactical and strategic thinking and her liaison between the ASZ and The Kingdom. I would love to see her being included in the planning of AOW, being trusted by all the leaders and given some responsibilities. I'd like to see Carol size up and take on some of The Saviors and Negan too- imagine the great dialogue which could come out of that! I want no changes in the relationship with King Ezekiel, just a continuation of the bond they formed in season 7. Carzekiel will not be happening I feel certain, and I would prefer Carol building stronger relationships with other members of Rick's group. I like where Carol's relationship with Morgan is at this point and I'm fine with continuing that as it is right now, but no further. Sadly, one reason I want those two relationships to stay as they are is simply because of fandom, which is an awful reason to want that. I want Carol to charm and dazzle the Hilltop folks she hasn't met yet, like Jesus. I also want her to have better clothes than in recent seasons- yes I am shallow about that. Clothes in which she looks well but not as though she raided a Cross Creek catalog or hit the Anne Taylor outlet at a bad time. CarylSo what wishes do you have for Carol in season 8? How do you want to see her as a character with her own storyline now that she has left The Comfort House and joined the war?
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Post by AlienSoul on May 7, 2017 4:48:56 GMT -5
In addition to your list, Ripley, off the top of my head: - To talk about her demons and her pain - To receive support and comfort from her family - Better hair (s4/5) - To smile and laugh and experience some happiness
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2017 7:12:15 GMT -5
Truthfully i'm not sure what Carol's role will be in season 8. I just hope her story isn't pointless like her last story with Morgan. And that she isn't used to prop male characters and a new location like she was last season. For season 8 I would like to see Carol reconnect with TF. No more separating her for the sake of pointless arcs that going no where. I would love for her to talk about the events at the Grove. But i'm not holding my breath on that. Because with SG he would probably make it about some other character instead of it being about Carol like he did with the revealing of Glenn's and Abe's deaths. > I would love for Carol to be happy and for Caryl to finally happen. I don't actually care about The Kingdom or its people, because I find the whole set up to be ridiculous. But I could see Carol maybe ending up there in some capacity. because SG needs favourites at the new locations to get the reel the audience to watch the new characters and locations. ( although going by season 7 that didn't work)
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 7, 2017 9:36:13 GMT -5
-keep the jeans she wore in the finale -a reunion with Team family (with some hugs) -scenes with Daryl -not to be used for stupid plot devices or Gimple's "kreativ" ideas -a chance to talk about what she went through -I'd like to hear Rick thank her again for saving Judith
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 7, 2017 12:23:49 GMT -5
My biggest interest in carol's story as it is now is seeing her have ongoing bonds with people and become an integral part of the strategic planning to fight negan. No more completely unnecessary guilt, no more being held accountable for things other characters do all the time. Carol has shown quick thinking and good decision making (with notable exceptions)for most of the show - certainly when it came to defeating organized threats. I do think carol should be considered a necessary person in the fight. I'd like to see that, and I'd like to see as Ripley mentioned, appreciation from others in the group, not a once a season shoutout. I'd like to see carick have more screentime - this is a dynamic I've really appreciated and feel has a lot of value for both characters. I can accept that morgan will factor in but I think that chapter has ended, and I'm hoping he will be less at the front and center of her interactions with others. I'd like to see carol and daryl interact more than one episode a season if I'm supposed to buy their closeness, but I'd certainly like for them to remain just good friends for the so carol's story can evolve. Id like to see carol assume more control/involvement in Ezekiels army (of like, 8 people, but whatever). It'd be swell if she were allowed to interact with other women. A part of me (and this will never happen) would love to see carol become involved in supporting the "wives" in some way.
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2017 12:59:01 GMT -5
Meggo358 yes to the Carick stuff I really miss their interactions. I really want Rick to tell Carol the stuff he tells others about Carol. Like in season 5 when he told michonne he owned Carol. And him telling Morgan that he would have done the same thing to Karen and David. And I really want Carol to tell Rick about the Grove stuff. The stuff about the wives would be interesting especially with Carol's background. But I think those wives are all going to disappear with amber probably getting her comic ending.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 7, 2017 13:46:03 GMT -5
Meggo358 yes to the Carick stuff I really miss their interactions. I really want Rick to tell Carol the stuff he tells others about Carol. Like in season 5 when he told michonne he owned Carol. And him telling Morgan that he would have done the same thing to Karen and David. And I really want Carol to tell Rick about the Grove stuff. The stuff about the wives would be interesting especially with Carol's background. But I think those wives are all going to disappear with amber probably getting her comic ending. Rick does a good job fan-boying over carol to others but I agree it'd be nice to see their dynamic come more into play next year, especially after all thats happened. I will always believe rick should know about the grove but its been so long I dont think it will carry even close to the same weight, so if they just had meaningful discussions and fun interactions (and I did think those two conspiring together was fun) that would be enough. Agreed about the wives stuff - missed opportunity.
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Post by greaterpursuit on May 7, 2017 13:46:31 GMT -5
Get her away from all these middle aged men (except for one ) and have her interact and have meaningful relationships with the other women. Melissa has a great shape. Put in clothes that show that. Bring the events of the Grove full circle. I want that story to have actually meant something.
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2017 15:15:22 GMT -5
I would like to see a increase in her screentime. Season 7 was just beyond ridiculous with how they handled Carol screentime.
Also would like to see Carol have scenes with Maggie and Michonne. Carol and Maggie has only had very limited screentime together that took place in season 5 after years of not interacting. And still to this day Carol and Michonne have never had a conversation.
I want to see Carol and Negan. As it's stands Carol and Morgan are the only two characters from TF who have had no interactions with him. And I don't they even know what Negan even looks like.
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Post by greaterpursuit on May 7, 2017 15:25:05 GMT -5
Nah, I don't want to see Carol interact with Negan. Within 3 minutes of a scene together we'd be hearing about Cegan from the ABC crowd. Let's just completely avoid that with no scenes together.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 7, 2017 16:03:50 GMT -5
I would like to see Carol interact with Negan. The ABC folk would ship her with a tree stump and it is best to ignore them. I'd just like to see which Carol shows up. Cold Carol, flirty Carol, Housewife Carol? Might be interesting. Mostly I want Carol to talk with Maggie about the baby, Daryl about the Grove, and Rick about the best way to fight off Negan. I can see Carol at the Kingdom. She was so dismissive of the place at first and I actually like the Kingdom.
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2017 16:11:12 GMT -5
Nah, I don't want to see Carol interact with Negan. Within 3 minutes of a scene together we'd be hearing about Cegan from the ABC crowd. Let's just completely avoid that with no scenes together. I don't care about those idiots in the fandom everyone knows they have agendas. I just think it could be interesting and I want Carol to be connected to the main story. And Negan is where the story will be in season 8 especially in 8a. So if SG gives us Carol and Negan I wouldn't turn my nose up at them
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Post by reckon on May 10, 2017 19:40:05 GMT -5
I'd like Carol to be back with TF and actually interacting with them, now that her comics Michonne isolation arc is over, finally, after two whole seasons.
I'd like Rick to learn what Carol and Ty had to do at the Grove to protect Judith, and I'd like him to thank Carol for it.
I'd like Carol to have the same attractive wardrobe and makeup other female characters are given. I'd like Carol to have the same hair color Daryl was given. If there's a time jump, I'd like Carol to have her gorgeous curls grown out, as a sign that she's grown beyond Ed holding her down. (Plus, Melissa's curls are just gorgeous.)
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Post by dark sister on May 12, 2017 14:37:15 GMT -5
I just want her to interact with members of TF.
And for Caryl to happen.
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Post by murph on May 13, 2017 14:29:57 GMT -5
I don't want Carol back at Alexandria. I think she moved on from Alexandria and Alexandria moved on from her. I want Carol (and Daryl) at The Kingdom with multiple Carick and Carickyl scenes through the season. But Team Alexandria is Rick, Michonne, Carl, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric, Tara, Rosita and kinda Eugene and Alexandrian redshirts. (Daryl was all over the place last season and we don't really know where he'll land) She doesn't have a relationship with the majority of those people. Really, she doesn't even have one with Michonne. She should, but we've never seen it. Carol was so underused last season and I hated that it seemed like she had been forgotten and like it didn't matter. I don't want the pain she went through last season to be for nothing, for her to go back and just slot in like her season 7 experiences could have completely been written off. I think she's too important for that. And Alexandria was not a good place for her. She was miserable, in turmoil, couldn't allow herself to lose control, lost Sam, got into a relationship she shouldn't have and all round just didn't fit and others didn't even notice.
This verses The Kingdom, where she was seen for who and what she was straight away. Where Ezekiel saw right through her and put effort into helping her, where Jerry wants to bring her food and make her smile, where she found some balance with Morgan, where Daniel and Diane trust her and will follow her, where she understood what was important to her, where she stood up and got her fight back, where she can have a fresh start. Maggie isn't in Alexandria but she certainly hasn't lost her relationship with Rick, so I don't think the same should be impossible for Carol.
I also think there is a place for her at the Kingdom where there isn't at Alexandria. Alexandrian characters got growth last year, and they got it without her. They went through awful experiences that she wasn't a part of. They became a team when she wasn't there. She can't lead from there. I don't want Carol coming back into somewhere that was okay without her and her taking their scenes. I don't want Daryl-type treatment and backlash. Especially not when there are better choices. I won't ever say no to Carol scenes with any Alexandrian, especially female/Atlanta 5 Team Family members, but I want it from a place that actually acknowledges who the characters really are. I think and hope that can allow for more equal footing, as well. She's not the one who bakes cookies and comes out of nowhere to kill the bad guys. Carol, community leader, friend and competent ally is much better to me.
More specific things I want: Caryl (done well) Carick scenes Grove talk (with Daryl and Rick) Carol smiling Carol and Ezekiel friendship I'd like a Carol and Maggie and a Carol and Carl scene Carol taking charge, but with a team, not going it alone
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 14, 2017 15:28:17 GMT -5
I don't want Carol back at Alexandria. I think she moved on from Alexandria and Alexandria moved on from her. I want Carol (and Daryl) at The Kingdom with multiple Carick and Carickyl scenes through the season. But Team Alexandria is Rick, Michonne, Carl, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric, Tara, Rosita and kinda Eugene and Alexandrian redshirts. (Daryl was all over the place last season and we don't really know where he'll land) She doesn't have a relationship with the majority of those people. Really, she doesn't even have one with Michonne. She should, but we've never seen it. Carol was so underused last season and I hated that it seemed like she had been forgotten and like it didn't matter. I don't want the pain she went through last season to be for nothing, for her to go back and just slot in like her season 7 experiences could have completely been written off. I think she's too important for that. And Alexandria was not a good place for her. She was miserable, in turmoil, couldn't allow herself to lose control, lost Sam, got into a relationship she shouldn't have and all round just didn't fit and others didn't even notice. This verses The Kingdom, where she was seen for who and what she was straight away. Where Ezekiel saw right through her and put effort into helping her, where Jerry wants to bring her food and make her smile, where she found some balance with Morgan, where Daniel and Diane trust her and will follow her, where she understood what was important to her, where she stood up and got her fight back, where she can have a fresh start. Maggie isn't in Alexandria but she certainly hasn't lost her relationship with Rick, so I don't think the same should be impossible for Carol. I also think there is a place for her at the Kingdom where there isn't at Alexandria. Alexandrian characters got growth last year, and they got it without her. They went through awful experiences that she wasn't a part of. They became a team when she wasn't there. She can't lead from there. I don't want Carol coming back into somewhere that was okay without her and her taking their scenes. I don't want Daryl-type treatment and backlash. Especially not when there are better choices. I won't ever say no to Carol scenes with any Alexandrian, especially female/Atlanta 5 Team Family members, but I want it from a place that actually acknowledges who the characters really are. I think and hope that can allow for more equal footing, as well. She's not the one who bakes cookies and comes out of nowhere to kill the bad guys. Carol, community leader, friend and competent ally is much better to me. More specific things I want: Caryl (done well) Carick scenes Grove talk (with Daryl and Rick) Carol smiling Carol and Ezekiel friendship I'd like a Carol and Maggie and a Carol and Carl scene Carol taking charge, but with a team, not going it alone I agree with so, so much of this. I am with you 100% on the kingdom vs ASZ rationale. As sad as it is, aside from Rick and Daryl, we never really saw much of carol having a bond with any of these people. Doesnt mean they werent there but it did feel like carol was the odd woman out. I cant imagine her exclusion from key "group" moments was an accident, and it does make sense that she'd have trouble integrating back into the group, and ASZ by extension, after what happened to her in season 4. Carol already seems to be a part of the kingdom community, by contrast. She's been brought into the fold from a fighting standpoint, they've brought her cobbler(!), showed her kindness and been understanding even when she wasnt making it easy on them. I think that has more to do with the kingdom's way of approaching the world more so than Carol herself (because they have just really gotten to know her), but those are the kinds of interactions she needs at this point and I think at the end of the season we saw carol recognize that. I agree about the fact that theres opportunity for carol to do more at the kingdom than at ASZ. She can come into her own there, have some command (not necessarily be in charge) and perhaps find a balance in the vein she did in at the prison. As you've said, the ASZ group has formed its own community through their shared trauma, just as maggie, sasha, enid and jesus banded together last year. I see this being the same for carol.
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Post by murph on May 14, 2017 18:17:14 GMT -5
I don't want Carol back at Alexandria. I think she moved on from Alexandria and Alexandria moved on from her. I want Carol (and Daryl) at The Kingdom with multiple Carick and Carickyl scenes through the season. But Team Alexandria is Rick, Michonne, Carl, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric, Tara, Rosita and kinda Eugene and Alexandrian redshirts. (Daryl was all over the place last season and we don't really know where he'll land) She doesn't have a relationship with the majority of those people. Really, she doesn't even have one with Michonne. She should, but we've never seen it. Carol was so underused last season and I hated that it seemed like she had been forgotten and like it didn't matter. I don't want the pain she went through last season to be for nothing, for her to go back and just slot in like her season 7 experiences could have completely been written off. I think she's too important for that. And Alexandria was not a good place for her. She was miserable, in turmoil, couldn't allow herself to lose control, lost Sam, got into a relationship she shouldn't have and all round just didn't fit and others didn't even notice. This verses The Kingdom, where she was seen for who and what she was straight away. Where Ezekiel saw right through her and put effort into helping her, where Jerry wants to bring her food and make her smile, where she found some balance with Morgan, where Daniel and Diane trust her and will follow her, where she understood what was important to her, where she stood up and got her fight back, where she can have a fresh start. Maggie isn't in Alexandria but she certainly hasn't lost her relationship with Rick, so I don't think the same should be impossible for Carol. I also think there is a place for her at the Kingdom where there isn't at Alexandria. Alexandrian characters got growth last year, and they got it without her. They went through awful experiences that she wasn't a part of. They became a team when she wasn't there. She can't lead from there. I don't want Carol coming back into somewhere that was okay without her and her taking their scenes. I don't want Daryl-type treatment and backlash. Especially not when there are better choices. I won't ever say no to Carol scenes with any Alexandrian, especially female/Atlanta 5 Team Family members, but I want it from a place that actually acknowledges who the characters really are. I think and hope that can allow for more equal footing, as well. She's not the one who bakes cookies and comes out of nowhere to kill the bad guys. Carol, community leader, friend and competent ally is much better to me. More specific things I want: Caryl (done well) Carick scenes Grove talk (with Daryl and Rick) Carol smiling Carol and Ezekiel friendship I'd like a Carol and Maggie and a Carol and Carl scene Carol taking charge, but with a team, not going it alone I agree with so, so much of this. I am with you 100% on the kingdom vs ASZ rationale. As sad as it is, aside from Rick and Daryl, we never really saw much of carol having a bond with any of these people. Doesnt mean they werent there but it did feel like carol was the odd woman out. I cant imagine her exclusion from key "group" moments was an accident, and it does make sense that she'd have trouble integrating back into the group, and ASZ by extension, after what happened to her in season 4. Carol already seems to be a part of the kingdom community, by contrast. She's been brought into the fold from a fighting standpoint, they've brought her cobbler(!), showed her kindness and been understanding even when she wasnt making it easy on them. I think that has more to do with the kingdom's way of approaching the world more so than Carol herself (because they have just really gotten to know her), but those are the kinds of interactions she needs at this point and I think at the end of the season we saw carol recognize that. I agree about the fact that theres opportunity for carol to do more at the kingdom than at ASZ. She can come into her own there, have some command (not necessarily be in charge) and perhaps find a balance in the vein she did in at the prison. As you've said, the ASZ group has formed its own community through their shared trauma, just as maggie, sasha, enid and jesus banded together last year. I see this being the same for carol. Definitely agree with you that it's more about how the Kingdom is, than her influence on them, but I think that's part of why I like it so much: she fits there. She did not fit in Alexandria, and nobody really saw who she really was there. She had to go out of her way, make herself uncomfortable, to try to play the role she felt she had to (I don't just mean the sweet, harmless woman who bakes or her relationship with Tobin, but the role to the group of protector) I like Alexandrians like Aaron and Eric, but the place was not ready made for the group, and the ones who were really involved in it evolving were people like Michonne, who had that connection with Deanna so Michonne was really a part of what was there before, and creating what it became, or like Gabriel who really grew himself as Alexandria did, by being part of that community. Carol didn't have any of that involvement. And The Kingdom as a group are just nice. They're welcoming and smiley and have a very different attitude and feel than Alexandria did. And I think there's potential for a really good balance in that there's open placement for her. It's ready made for her, but not so much totally established that she can't still find her place and be important in it's progression and identity. My only condition is that she doesn't lose all relationship with Team Family (especially Rick, and Daryl, depending where he ends up) but like I said already, with how it's been done with Maggie moving to Hilltop but still having such a relationship and affect with and on Rick, I don't see why Carol being at the Kingdom means she would be isolated from the others.
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Post by gia on May 14, 2017 19:25:27 GMT -5
I don't want Carol back at Alexandria. I think she moved on from Alexandria and Alexandria moved on from her. I want Carol (and Daryl) at The Kingdom with multiple Carick and Carickyl scenes through the season. But Team Alexandria is Rick, Michonne, Carl, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric, Tara, Rosita and kinda Eugene and Alexandrian redshirts. (Daryl was all over the place last season and we don't really know where he'll land) She doesn't have a relationship with the majority of those people. Really, she doesn't even have one with Michonne. She should, but we've never seen it. Carol was so underused last season and I hated that it seemed like she had been forgotten and like it didn't matter. I don't want the pain she went through last season to be for nothing, for her to go back and just slot in like her season 7 experiences could have completely been written off. I think she's too important for that. And Alexandria was not a good place for her. She was miserable, in turmoil, couldn't allow herself to lose control, lost Sam, got into a relationship she shouldn't have and all round just didn't fit and others didn't even notice. This verses The Kingdom, where she was seen for who and what she was straight away. Where Ezekiel saw right through her and put effort into helping her, where Jerry wants to bring her food and make her smile, where she found some balance with Morgan, where Daniel and Diane trust her and will follow her, where she understood what was important to her, where she stood up and got her fight back, where she can have a fresh start. Maggie isn't in Alexandria but she certainly hasn't lost her relationship with Rick, so I don't think the same should be impossible for Carol. I also think there is a place for her at the Kingdom where there isn't at Alexandria. Alexandrian characters got growth last year, and they got it without her. They went through awful experiences that she wasn't a part of. They became a team when she wasn't there. She can't lead from there. I don't want Carol coming back into somewhere that was okay without her and her taking their scenes. I don't want Daryl-type treatment and backlash. Especially not when there are better choices. I won't ever say no to Carol scenes with any Alexandrian, especially female/Atlanta 5 Team Family members, but I want it from a place that actually acknowledges who the characters really are. I think and hope that can allow for more equal footing, as well. She's not the one who bakes cookies and comes out of nowhere to kill the bad guys. Carol, community leader, friend and competent ally is much better to me. More specific things I want: Caryl (done well) Carick scenes Grove talk (with Daryl and Rick) Carol smiling Carol and Ezekiel friendship I'd like a Carol and Maggie and a Carol and Carl scene Carol taking charge, but with a team, not going it alone It wasn't Alexandria that was bad for her, she was in a bad place no matter what at that point. Just like the whole thing with the Andersons happened there, but Rick is just fine there now with Michonne. And I don't feel that she's a part of the kingdom at all, she stayed away from them and wanted nothing to do with them. Ezekiel caught on to her act only because he was acting as well. She showed that she has very little feeling for the people at the kingdom in the way she treated them, as opposed to how she treated Daryl when he showed up. The people at the kingdom don't know her at all, they weren't there at the beginning. It's TF who know all about her, and that's where I would like her to be, not playing army men with the kingdomers. It's just not her style and makes me feel like she's now relegated to following Ezekiel around instead of being herself. I've grown tired of Ezekiel's act, it's getting to be as out there as Negan, and the one thing I really liked out of all that was Morgan and Carol's friendship. I agree that she was totally underused last season and I hated it. So I want her back in the thick of things, with TF. Not that I will get that, because Gimple.
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Post by murph on May 14, 2017 19:42:22 GMT -5
I don't want Carol back at Alexandria. I think she moved on from Alexandria and Alexandria moved on from her. I want Carol (and Daryl) at The Kingdom with multiple Carick and Carickyl scenes through the season. But Team Alexandria is Rick, Michonne, Carl, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric, Tara, Rosita and kinda Eugene and Alexandrian redshirts. (Daryl was all over the place last season and we don't really know where he'll land) She doesn't have a relationship with the majority of those people. Really, she doesn't even have one with Michonne. She should, but we've never seen it. Carol was so underused last season and I hated that it seemed like she had been forgotten and like it didn't matter. I don't want the pain she went through last season to be for nothing, for her to go back and just slot in like her season 7 experiences could have completely been written off. I think she's too important for that. And Alexandria was not a good place for her. She was miserable, in turmoil, couldn't allow herself to lose control, lost Sam, got into a relationship she shouldn't have and all round just didn't fit and others didn't even notice. This verses The Kingdom, where she was seen for who and what she was straight away. Where Ezekiel saw right through her and put effort into helping her, where Jerry wants to bring her food and make her smile, where she found some balance with Morgan, where Daniel and Diane trust her and will follow her, where she understood what was important to her, where she stood up and got her fight back, where she can have a fresh start. Maggie isn't in Alexandria but she certainly hasn't lost her relationship with Rick, so I don't think the same should be impossible for Carol. I also think there is a place for her at the Kingdom where there isn't at Alexandria. Alexandrian characters got growth last year, and they got it without her. They went through awful experiences that she wasn't a part of. They became a team when she wasn't there. She can't lead from there. I don't want Carol coming back into somewhere that was okay without her and her taking their scenes. I don't want Daryl-type treatment and backlash. Especially not when there are better choices. I won't ever say no to Carol scenes with any Alexandrian, especially female/Atlanta 5 Team Family members, but I want it from a place that actually acknowledges who the characters really are. I think and hope that can allow for more equal footing, as well. She's not the one who bakes cookies and comes out of nowhere to kill the bad guys. Carol, community leader, friend and competent ally is much better to me. More specific things I want: Caryl (done well) Carick scenes Grove talk (with Daryl and Rick) Carol smiling Carol and Ezekiel friendship I'd like a Carol and Maggie and a Carol and Carl scene Carol taking charge, but with a team, not going it alone It wasn't Alexandria that was bad for her, she was in a bad place no matter what at that point. Just like the whole thing with the Andersons happened there, but Rick is just fine there now with Michonne. And I don't feel that she's a part of the kingdom at all, she stayed away from them and wanted nothing to do with them. Ezekiel caught on to her act only because he was acting as well. She showed that she has very little feeling for the people at the kingdom in the way she treated them, as opposed to how she treated Daryl when he showed up. The people at the kingdom don't know her at all, they weren't there at the beginning. It's TF who know all about her, and that's where I would like her to be, not playing army men with the kingdomers. It's just not her style and makes me feel like she's now relegated to following Ezekiel around instead of being herself. I've grown tired of Ezekiel's act, it's getting to be as out there as Negan, and the one thing I really liked out of all that was Morgan and Carol's friendship. I agree that she was totally underused last season and I hated it. So I want her back in the thick of things, with TF. Not that I will get that, because Gimple. I disagree it wasn't in large part to do with Alexandria. Alexandria was Deanna hiding shit, an abusive marriage, happy suburbia pretending to be something it wasn't and shouldn't be. It was absolutely in part Alexandria to me. That's why Tobin went the way it did. It's why Morgan went the way it did. She took no part. Daryl is definitely not in comparison to The Kingdom, as a group, or any individual Kingdom character. I think to present I've put that in question is kind of disingenuous. Daryl is the most important thing to her. That's incredibly obvious. But Daryl and "Team Family" is not necessarily the same thing. And Daryl is not Alexandria. In no way did I ever suggest that Carol can be perfectly happy at The Kingdom because it can mean more to her than Daryl does. On the contrary, I have said every time I would want Daryl with her the Kingdom. And the scene comparison with Kingdom lot at Carol's doorstep and not letting them in verses letting Daryl is is really important, but not just because Daryl was the one who was allowed in the house; the Kingdom group standing at her door, bringing her things, acknowledging her, being there - there's your difference to Alexandria. And my posts focused on what the Kingdom could be for her - I was not saying what it is for her. A fresh start, somewhere she could find a place - those are the things I've said. And this is the thing I struggle with quite a lot. Carol and "Team Family", sorry, but what does that actually mean? Remove Daryl and Rick, whom I have continually said her relationships with each need to remain important...who is Carol close to? She's had more scenes with Jerry than she has with Michonne. And here's the two choices: either she does have a relationship with these people, but it's not important enough that we've ever really seen much of it displayed on screen and the people she apparently has such a strong relationship with that they didn't even notice she was so miserable, or even mention her all damn season when she was gone? These are the people that apparently know her so well? We can argue the 'should' all we want, but unless Gimple is going to do episodes with of flashbacks to show us those relationships, that actually they did realise she wasn't okay and actually did mention her last season and worry about where she was and if she was coming back, the way it is now and has been, is what's actually there. If that's Carol's life, that those people she will die for, that mean the world to her, that we have no tangible anything with other than "Team Family" and "Carol cares about her family"? That's the best we can hope for for her? That's lip service. It doesn't actually mean anything. Outwith Rick and Daryl, it doesn't really mean anything. With Glenn gone and Maggie no longer at Alexandria, it means even less. So the idea that Carol should stay for Aaron, Gabriel and Rosita is absolutely ridiculous to me. Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own?
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 14, 2017 22:05:14 GMT -5
[ Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own? I'm actually still bitter about that. Carol had to sacrifice her adopted children to keep Rick's child safe. Then the one kid she was afraid to get close too, but formed a bond with is killed because Rick can't keep his family alive.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 15, 2017 7:56:37 GMT -5
[ Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own? I'm actually still bitter about that. Carol had to sacrifice her adopted children to keep Rick's child safe. Then the one kid she was afraid to get close too, but formed a bond with is killed because Rick can't keep his family alive. I really don't think Sam dying is Ricks fault - I'd put that one on the walkers. I do agree with murph's point it would be nice to see carol develop the kind of family bond michonne has (which of course can look very different and doesn't have to involve kids).
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Post by murph on May 15, 2017 8:59:45 GMT -5
[ Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own? I'm actually still bitter about that. Carol had to sacrifice her adopted children to keep Rick's child safe. Then the one kid she was afraid to get close too, but formed a bond with is killed because Rick can't keep his family alive. Personally I don't blame Rick for the loss of Sam. But regarding the bigger picture, I always really loved the potential of Carol with the Grimes kids, considering Carol's friendship with Lori, and Rick's influence with Sophia - the "we'd never go without you and your mom" in the car Season 2 scene is one I really love. And Carl having lost Sophia and Carol having lost Lori was always really worth something significant to me. I really liked Carol and Carl scenes. I would have happily had those relationships all continue - and I'm a Carick fan. I think all those dynamics and history of them are just interesting. However, with Michonne's story becoming what it has, I just don't think it fits anymore. I want Rick and Carol Grove talk, I always will; I want Rick to know - and Judith and Carl will obviously always be important to Carol, but I guess I'm glad now that people like Tara and Gabriel have become the ones to look after Judith instead of Carol. Babysitter Carol isn't one I'm interested in. I'd maybe take one scene of Carol with Baby Rhee, but that's about it.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 15, 2017 9:24:35 GMT -5
I'm actually still bitter about that. Carol had to sacrifice her adopted children to keep Rick's child safe. Then the one kid she was afraid to get close too, but formed a bond with is killed because Rick can't keep his family alive. Personally I don't blame Rick for the loss of Sam. But regarding the bigger picture, I always really loved the potential of Carol with the Grimes kids, considering Carol's friendship with Lori, and Rick's influence with Sophia - the "we'd never go without you and your mom" in the car Season 2 scene is one I really love. And Carl having lost Sophia and Carol having lost Lori was always really worth something significant to me. I really liked Carol and Carl scenes. I would have happily had those relationships all continue - and I'm a Carick fan. I think all those dynamics and history of them are just interesting. However, with Michonne's story becoming what it has, I just don't think it fits anymore. I want Rick and Carol Grove talk, I always will; I want Rick to know - and Judith and Carl will obviously always be important to Carol, but I guess I'm glad now that people like Tara and Gabriel have become the ones to look after Judith instead of Carol. Babysitter Carol isn't one I'm interested in. I'd maybe take one scene of Carol with Baby Rhee, but that's about it. I blame Rick for everything pretty much but IMO the fact is a whole family is dead and the wife/mother was a woman he was infatuated with. He's a black widower. That said, I'm glad Carol has been relieved of childcare duties. I don't miss that.
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Post by gia on May 15, 2017 10:09:38 GMT -5
It wasn't Alexandria that was bad for her, she was in a bad place no matter what at that point. Just like the whole thing with the Andersons happened there, but Rick is just fine there now with Michonne. And I don't feel that she's a part of the kingdom at all, she stayed away from them and wanted nothing to do with them. Ezekiel caught on to her act only because he was acting as well. She showed that she has very little feeling for the people at the kingdom in the way she treated them, as opposed to how she treated Daryl when he showed up. The people at the kingdom don't know her at all, they weren't there at the beginning. It's TF who know all about her, and that's where I would like her to be, not playing army men with the kingdomers. It's just not her style and makes me feel like she's now relegated to following Ezekiel around instead of being herself. I've grown tired of Ezekiel's act, it's getting to be as out there as Negan, and the one thing I really liked out of all that was Morgan and Carol's friendship. I agree that she was totally underused last season and I hated it. So I want her back in the thick of things, with TF. Not that I will get that, because Gimple. I disagree it wasn't in large part to do with Alexandria. Alexandria was Deanna hiding shit, an abusive marriage, happy suburbia pretending to be something it wasn't and shouldn't be. It was absolutely in part Alexandria to me. That's why Tobin went the way it did. It's why Morgan went the way it did. She took no part. Daryl is definitely not in comparison to The Kingdom, as a group, or any individual Kingdom character. I think to present I've put that in question is kind of disingenuous. Daryl is the most important thing to her. That's incredibly obvious. But Daryl and "Team Family" is not necessarily the same thing. And Daryl is not Alexandria. In no way did I ever suggest that Carol can be perfectly happy at The Kingdom because it can mean more to her than Daryl does. On the contrary, I have said every time I would want Daryl with her the Kingdom. And the scene comparison with Kingdom lot at Carol's doorstep and not letting them in verses letting Daryl is is really important, but not just because Daryl was the one who was allowed in the house; the Kingdom group standing at her door, bringing her things, acknowledging her, being there - there's your difference to Alexandria. And my posts focused on what the Kingdom could be for her - I was not saying what it is for her. A fresh start, somewhere she could find a place - those are the things I've said. And this is the thing I struggle with quite a lot. Carol and "Team Family", sorry, but what does that actually mean? Remove Daryl and Rick, whom I have continually said her relationships with each need to remain important...who is Carol close to? She's had more scenes with Jerry than she has with Michonne. And here's the two choices: either she does have a relationship with these people, but it's not important enough that we've ever really seen much of it displayed on screen and the people she apparently has such a strong relationship with that they didn't even notice she was so miserable, or even mention her all damn season when she was gone? These are the people that apparently know her so well? We can argue the 'should' all we want, but unless Gimple is going to do episodes with of flashbacks to show us those relationships, that actually they did realise she wasn't okay and actually did mention her last season and worry about where she was and if she was coming back, the way it is now and has been, is what's actually there. If that's Carol's life, that those people she will die for, that mean the world to her, that we have no tangible anything with other than "Team Family" and "Carol cares about her family"? That's the best we can hope for for her? That's lip service. It doesn't actually mean anything. Outwith Rick and Daryl, it doesn't really mean anything. With Glenn gone and Maggie no longer at Alexandria, it means even less. So the idea that Carol should stay for Aaron, Gabriel and Rosita is absolutely ridiculous to me. Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own? I don't feel like I want a "fresh start somewhere else", at that point we may as well be watching a different show. I want the group together, the people who interest me. I've already said I know that most likely won't happen because Gimple. To be honest, Carol's interactions with the kingdom have all been one sided, she has no interest in them at all. So it's not her place. Scenes with Jerry mean little if she just wants them gone and doesn't respond. I do get your struggle with TF, I have that same struggle, and I agree with what you're saying. But regardless, I still want her with her family, and I want the writers to recognize that, though I expect nothing from them in reality. But I totally get what you're saying there. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous with my comparison. She would have been happy to see Rick or Michonne or Maggie there as well. It was Daryl who showed up, and we were given a complete and total comparison as to how she reacts to her family and how she reacts to the kingdomers. Obviously she is closer to Daryl, but had Glenn and Maggie showed up do you think she would have rolled her eyes and told them to leave? It shows where her heart lies, and I don't like having her apart from her heart. I'm feeling like Carol in armor is not who she is. She's now an appendage to Ezekiel, following him in kingdom armor instead of being herself. I know you would like Daryl to be with her there at the kingdom (I would too), but I don't hold out any more hope for Gimple to do that than to do what I'd like. So I think we may both be screwed there.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 15, 2017 11:11:45 GMT -5
gia I agree 100% there is a distinctive and intentional difference between carols reaction to the kingdom showing up than Daryl. I don't think that was an accident or should ignored. Seeing someone who knew her already (rather than a group who likes her don't really know her) is what she needed in that moment in order to let someone in and I assume it will continue to play out moving forward. That said, I also can't ignore that Carol didn't leave for the asz when she heard about Glenn and Abe. She didn't rush to the hilltop either. She went to the kingdom and said "we have to fight". I don't think that was an accident either, nor was there anything ambiguous about her looking like team kingdom. I think their kindness and concern for her won her over at that point, and that was a stark contrast to the ASZ groups separation/lack of awareness of carols isolation and breakdown in season six (which I don't mean as a dig at them but I don't think that was an accident). I would also imagine (though this is just speculation) that Carol might recognize that she has a lot to offer the kingdom in terms of support and training. To me from a practical standpoint that's one of the reasons why her being there makes sense. I guess I'm struggling with why (a) Carol at the kingdom means she can't be close with any of ricks group moving forward, especially when no one seems to have that concern about Maggie and (b) aside from rick and Daryl whom we know she gets screentine with already who exactly she's going back for or what she's going back for. At the end of the day "team family" only lives up to that name once or twice a season. I feel like as a strategy the show intends to break off into smaller groups anyway
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Post by Starlight on May 15, 2017 11:36:50 GMT -5
At this point I want Carol
~To get screen time. Caryl to happen. ~SG not to screw the character more for comic shit or for his own dulgent pointless crap. ~For her to reconnect with Rick ~And if she does and mostly like will end up at The Kindgom. She doesn't disappear with the kindgom like in the comics after AOW.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 15, 2017 11:42:06 GMT -5
At this point I want Carol ~To get screen time. Caryl to happen. ~SG not to screw the character more for comic shit or for his own dulgent pointless crap. ~For her to reconnect with Rick ~And if she does and mostly like will end up at The Kindgom. She doesn't disappear with the kindgom like in the comics after AOW. You know what starlite? I would be cool with (perhaps even supportive of??) caryl happening if all the other things you mentioned happened. That's a damn good list
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Post by murph on May 15, 2017 13:09:35 GMT -5
Personally I don't blame Rick for the loss of Sam. But regarding the bigger picture, I always really loved the potential of Carol with the Grimes kids, considering Carol's friendship with Lori, and Rick's influence with Sophia - the "we'd never go without you and your mom" in the car Season 2 scene is one I really love. And Carl having lost Sophia and Carol having lost Lori was always really worth something significant to me. I really liked Carol and Carl scenes. I would have happily had those relationships all continue - and I'm a Carick fan. I think all those dynamics and history of them are just interesting. However, with Michonne's story becoming what it has, I just don't think it fits anymore. I want Rick and Carol Grove talk, I always will; I want Rick to know - and Judith and Carl will obviously always be important to Carol, but I guess I'm glad now that people like Tara and Gabriel have become the ones to look after Judith instead of Carol. Babysitter Carol isn't one I'm interested in. I'd maybe take one scene of Carol with Baby Rhee, but that's about it. I blame Rick for everything pretty much but IMO the fact is a whole family is dead and the wife/mother was a woman he was infatuated with. He's a black widower. That said, I'm glad Carol has been relieved of childcare duties. I don't miss that. lol fair enough. There's a lot Rick doesn't get criticism for enough so I'm sure it all balances out somewhere lol.
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Post by murph on May 15, 2017 13:30:12 GMT -5
I disagree it wasn't in large part to do with Alexandria. Alexandria was Deanna hiding shit, an abusive marriage, happy suburbia pretending to be something it wasn't and shouldn't be. It was absolutely in part Alexandria to me. That's why Tobin went the way it did. It's why Morgan went the way it did. She took no part. Daryl is definitely not in comparison to The Kingdom, as a group, or any individual Kingdom character. I think to present I've put that in question is kind of disingenuous. Daryl is the most important thing to her. That's incredibly obvious. But Daryl and "Team Family" is not necessarily the same thing. And Daryl is not Alexandria. In no way did I ever suggest that Carol can be perfectly happy at The Kingdom because it can mean more to her than Daryl does. On the contrary, I have said every time I would want Daryl with her the Kingdom. And the scene comparison with Kingdom lot at Carol's doorstep and not letting them in verses letting Daryl is is really important, but not just because Daryl was the one who was allowed in the house; the Kingdom group standing at her door, bringing her things, acknowledging her, being there - there's your difference to Alexandria. And my posts focused on what the Kingdom could be for her - I was not saying what it is for her. A fresh start, somewhere she could find a place - those are the things I've said. And this is the thing I struggle with quite a lot. Carol and "Team Family", sorry, but what does that actually mean? Remove Daryl and Rick, whom I have continually said her relationships with each need to remain important...who is Carol close to? She's had more scenes with Jerry than she has with Michonne. And here's the two choices: either she does have a relationship with these people, but it's not important enough that we've ever really seen much of it displayed on screen and the people she apparently has such a strong relationship with that they didn't even notice she was so miserable, or even mention her all damn season when she was gone? These are the people that apparently know her so well? We can argue the 'should' all we want, but unless Gimple is going to do episodes with of flashbacks to show us those relationships, that actually they did realise she wasn't okay and actually did mention her last season and worry about where she was and if she was coming back, the way it is now and has been, is what's actually there. If that's Carol's life, that those people she will die for, that mean the world to her, that we have no tangible anything with other than "Team Family" and "Carol cares about her family"? That's the best we can hope for for her? That's lip service. It doesn't actually mean anything. Outwith Rick and Daryl, it doesn't really mean anything. With Glenn gone and Maggie no longer at Alexandria, it means even less. So the idea that Carol should stay for Aaron, Gabriel and Rosita is absolutely ridiculous to me. Even Carl and Judith - that's Michonne's nuclear family now. Does Carol not deserve one of her own? I don't feel like I want a "fresh start somewhere else", at that point we may as well be watching a different show. I want the group together, the people who interest me. I've already said I know that most likely won't happen because Gimple. To be honest, Carol's interactions with the kingdom have all been one sided, she has no interest in them at all. So it's not her place. Scenes with Jerry mean little if she just wants them gone and doesn't respond. I do get your struggle with TF, I have that same struggle, and I agree with what you're saying. But regardless, I still want her with her family, and I want the writers to recognize that, though I expect nothing from them in reality. But I totally get what you're saying there. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous with my comparison. She would have been happy to see Rick or Michonne or Maggie there as well. It was Daryl who showed up, and we were given a complete and total comparison as to how she reacts to her family and how she reacts to the kingdomers. Obviously she is closer to Daryl, but had Glenn and Maggie showed up do you think she would have rolled her eyes and told them to leave? It shows where her heart lies, and I don't like having her apart from her heart. I'm feeling like Carol in armor is not who she is. She's now an appendage to Ezekiel, following him in kingdom armor instead of being herself. I know you would like Daryl to be with her there at the kingdom (I would too), but I don't hold out any more hope for Gimple to do that than to do what I'd like. So I think we may both be screwed there. But that group doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't for a long time. Who is Carol's family? The people who know her? Who are they? Cuz most of them are dead and most of the people who are alive and actually make up the Alexandria community, whether we like it or not, are not people we can say know Carol. The majority of them are people she met from Season 5 onwards. What have we ever seen to suggest they know her? Other than apparently one of them telling Morgan shit about her she prolly wouldn't want talked about. Rosita, Tara, Eugene, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric - when have we ever seen her be 'family' with these people? And if those people are actually her heart? I find that insanely sad. She deserves better. And Maggie is the example here, that it isn't as simple as Carol either with or not with her family. Rick is still Maggie's family. She has a strong relationship with him. She cares about Alexandrians. But she's not there anymore. Them being her family is not dependent on her living in Alexandria. She's in Hilltop not because she cares about the people there more, but because it is better for her to be there, for her health, for her to find a role, and yes, a fresh start. Why should it be different for Carol? I just think it's quite plain how the Kingdom has been set up. Carol's relationships with the Kingdom lot is not supposed to mean that she cares more about them, or that she gets along with them better than she does her very core family. It was never, ever about that. - the same way it doesn't mean such a thing for Maggie and Hilltop and nobody thought it was supposed to. How could it be? She's been there for about 5 minutes. It's not about Ezekiel verses Rick and who means the most to her, it's about the entire set up and what it can allow her to be. The Kingdom has the attitude and set up that allows Carol to be healthier. She did the exact same thing when she got to the Kingdom as she did at Alexandria, and yet the results were different: Alexandria was clueless and she fell further and further while nobody noticed. The Kingdom saw what she was doing and tried to help her. The combination of the situation at The Kingdom and the person she is closest to finding her there is what allowed Carol to find some clarity. It had to be both. It was not going to happen at Alexandria, because it has never indulged her that freedom. Carol is always in some kind of armour. That is Carol. Whether it's a sweater, a smile, a knife or knee guards, she absolutely does take that shit up. Who Carol is is what Daryl said "she'd be leading us right to them, ready to kill them all". Carol stepping up, yes for what and who she cares about and yes, for what is right. I don't see her as an add-on to Ezekiel. She's the one saying they have to fight. She's completely comfortable being her own person there and voicing what she thinks and wants. I do think there is a good chance Daryl will end up at The Kingdom. I'm not saying for definite because I obviously don't know, but the same way there's little role for Carol at Alexandria, Daryl's has been eroded too. Gabriel and Aaron have stepped into roles where Daryl was. Add in Michonne...I don't see where he's supposed to be there. They made a point of not having him physically at Alexandria last season. I don't see how Carol or he can just go back as if that didn't happen, as if an entire season didn't happen. Maggie has Enid and had Sasha at Hilltop, maybe Carol can have Daryl. If Daryl isn't at Kingdom with her, my opinion does change somewhat, that's true, but again, Maggie is literally on screen showing that being separated, does not actually mean being separated.
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Post by gia on May 15, 2017 20:55:09 GMT -5
gia I agree 100% there is a distinctive and intentional difference between carols reaction to the kingdom showing up than Daryl. I don't think that was an accident or should ignored. Seeing someone who knew her already (rather than a group who likes her don't really know her) is what she needed in that moment in order to let someone in and I assume it will continue to play out moving forward. That said, I also can't ignore that Carol didn't leave for the asz when she heard about Glenn and Abe. She didn't rush to the hilltop either. She went to the kingdom and said "we have to fight". I don't think that was an accident either, nor was there anything ambiguous about her looking like team kingdom. I think their kindness and concern for her won her over at that point, and that was a stark contrast to the ASZ groups separation/lack of awareness of carols isolation and breakdown in season six (which I don't mean as a dig at them but I don't think that was an accident). I would also imagine (though this is just speculation) that Carol might recognize that she has a lot to offer the kingdom in terms of support and training. To me from a practical standpoint that's one of the reasons why her being there makes sense. I guess I'm struggling with why (a) Carol at the kingdom means she can't be close with any of ricks group moving forward, especially when no one seems to have that concern about Maggie and (b) aside from rick and Daryl whom we know she gets screentine with already who exactly she's going back for or what she's going back for. At the end of the day "team family" only lives up to that name once or twice a season. I feel like as a strategy the show intends to break off into smaller groups anyway I understand what you're saying and think you have very good points, just like Murph does. My only thoughts to add to yours are: 1. I felt more that Carol saw she could help most by getting the kingdomers into the fight and helping to keep them going. That doesn't mean I want her to stay there, though, and I'm very discouraged thinking Gimple might do that. 2. My only excuse for not feeling the same way about Maggie being apart from TF is that I simply don't care as much about Maggie.
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