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Post by gia on May 15, 2017 21:10:14 GMT -5
I don't feel like I want a "fresh start somewhere else", at that point we may as well be watching a different show. I want the group together, the people who interest me. I've already said I know that most likely won't happen because Gimple. To be honest, Carol's interactions with the kingdom have all been one sided, she has no interest in them at all. So it's not her place. Scenes with Jerry mean little if she just wants them gone and doesn't respond. I do get your struggle with TF, I have that same struggle, and I agree with what you're saying. But regardless, I still want her with her family, and I want the writers to recognize that, though I expect nothing from them in reality. But I totally get what you're saying there. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous with my comparison. She would have been happy to see Rick or Michonne or Maggie there as well. It was Daryl who showed up, and we were given a complete and total comparison as to how she reacts to her family and how she reacts to the kingdomers. Obviously she is closer to Daryl, but had Glenn and Maggie showed up do you think she would have rolled her eyes and told them to leave? It shows where her heart lies, and I don't like having her apart from her heart. I'm feeling like Carol in armor is not who she is. She's now an appendage to Ezekiel, following him in kingdom armor instead of being herself. I know you would like Daryl to be with her there at the kingdom (I would too), but I don't hold out any more hope for Gimple to do that than to do what I'd like. So I think we may both be screwed there. But that group doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't for a long time. Who is Carol's family? The people who know her? Who are they? Cuz most of them are dead and most of the people who are alive and actually make up the Alexandria community, whether we like it or not, are not people we can say know Carol. The majority of them are people she met from Season 5 onwards. What have we ever seen to suggest they know her? Other than apparently one of them telling Morgan shit about her she prolly wouldn't want talked about. Rosita, Tara, Eugene, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric - when have we ever seen her be 'family' with these people? And if those people are actually her heart? I find that insanely sad. She deserves better. And Maggie is the example here, that it isn't as simple as Carol either with or not with her family. Rick is still Maggie's family. She has a strong relationship with him. She cares about Alexandrians. But she's not there anymore. Them being her family is not dependent on her living in Alexandria. She's in Hilltop not because she cares about the people there more, but because it is better for her to be there, for her health, for her to find a role, and yes, a fresh start. Why should it be different for Carol? I just think it's quite plain how the Kingdom has been set up. Carol's relationships with the Kingdom lot is not supposed to mean that she cares more about them, or that she gets along with them better than she does her very core family. It was never, ever about that. - the same way it doesn't mean such a thing for Maggie and Hilltop and nobody thought it was supposed to. How could it be? She's been there for about 5 minutes. It's not about Ezekiel verses Rick and who means the most to her, it's about the entire set up and what it can allow her to be. The Kingdom has the attitude and set up that allows Carol to be healthier. She did the exact same thing when she got to the Kingdom as she did at Alexandria, and yet the results were different: Alexandria was clueless and she fell further and further while nobody noticed. The Kingdom saw what she was doing and tried to help her. The combination of the situation at The Kingdom and the person she is closest to finding her there is what allowed Carol to find some clarity. It had to be both. It was not going to happen at Alexandria, because it has never indulged her that freedom. Carol is always in some kind of armour. That is Carol. Whether it's a sweater, a smile, a knife or knee guards, she absolutely does take that shit up. Who Carol is is what Daryl said "she'd be leading us right to them, ready to kill them all". Carol stepping up, yes for what and who she cares about and yes, for what is right. I don't see her as an add-on to Ezekiel. She's the one saying they have to fight. She's completely comfortable being her own person there and voicing what she thinks and wants. I do think there is a good chance Daryl will end up at The Kingdom. I'm not saying for definite because I obviously don't know, but the same way there's little role for Carol at Alexandria, Daryl's has been eroded too. Gabriel and Aaron have stepped into roles where Daryl was. Add in Michonne...I don't see where he's supposed to be there. They made a point of not having him physically at Alexandria last season. I don't see how Carol or he can just go back as if that didn't happen, as if an entire season didn't happen. Maggie has Enid and had Sasha at Hilltop, maybe Carol can have Daryl. If Daryl isn't at Kingdom with her, my opinion does change somewhat, that's true, but again, Maggie is literally on screen showing that being separated, does not actually mean being separated. You have excellent points, murph, and I appreciate that you share them with me. I simply would much rather have Carol, Daryl, Rick, Michonne, Maggie, Morgan, and Tara together and not split apart. That's the group I want to watch, and I'm completely frustrated with them getting so little time together while we endlessly watch people I don't care about. I have hated Carol being apart from TF for how long now? It seems like years. Now it most likely will continue. The writers are very good at making women the appendages of men on this show, and I can see that happening again. I don't see Daryl ending up at the kingdom at all. He left there immediately and only wanted to be back with the people he belongs with. Which is what I want Carol to do as well now that she's doing better, but I don't see it happening anymore. I'm very discouraged and am losing interest quickly. Carol staying at the kingdom, for me, is the beginning of the end of Caryl.
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Post by murph on May 15, 2017 22:09:14 GMT -5
But that group doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't for a long time. Who is Carol's family? The people who know her? Who are they? Cuz most of them are dead and most of the people who are alive and actually make up the Alexandria community, whether we like it or not, are not people we can say know Carol. The majority of them are people she met from Season 5 onwards. What have we ever seen to suggest they know her? Other than apparently one of them telling Morgan shit about her she prolly wouldn't want talked about. Rosita, Tara, Eugene, Gabriel, Aaron, Eric - when have we ever seen her be 'family' with these people? And if those people are actually her heart? I find that insanely sad. She deserves better. And Maggie is the example here, that it isn't as simple as Carol either with or not with her family. Rick is still Maggie's family. She has a strong relationship with him. She cares about Alexandrians. But she's not there anymore. Them being her family is not dependent on her living in Alexandria. She's in Hilltop not because she cares about the people there more, but because it is better for her to be there, for her health, for her to find a role, and yes, a fresh start. Why should it be different for Carol? I just think it's quite plain how the Kingdom has been set up. Carol's relationships with the Kingdom lot is not supposed to mean that she cares more about them, or that she gets along with them better than she does her very core family. It was never, ever about that. - the same way it doesn't mean such a thing for Maggie and Hilltop and nobody thought it was supposed to. How could it be? She's been there for about 5 minutes. It's not about Ezekiel verses Rick and who means the most to her, it's about the entire set up and what it can allow her to be. The Kingdom has the attitude and set up that allows Carol to be healthier. She did the exact same thing when she got to the Kingdom as she did at Alexandria, and yet the results were different: Alexandria was clueless and she fell further and further while nobody noticed. The Kingdom saw what she was doing and tried to help her. The combination of the situation at The Kingdom and the person she is closest to finding her there is what allowed Carol to find some clarity. It had to be both. It was not going to happen at Alexandria, because it has never indulged her that freedom. Carol is always in some kind of armour. That is Carol. Whether it's a sweater, a smile, a knife or knee guards, she absolutely does take that shit up. Who Carol is is what Daryl said "she'd be leading us right to them, ready to kill them all". Carol stepping up, yes for what and who she cares about and yes, for what is right. I don't see her as an add-on to Ezekiel. She's the one saying they have to fight. She's completely comfortable being her own person there and voicing what she thinks and wants. I do think there is a good chance Daryl will end up at The Kingdom. I'm not saying for definite because I obviously don't know, but the same way there's little role for Carol at Alexandria, Daryl's has been eroded too. Gabriel and Aaron have stepped into roles where Daryl was. Add in Michonne...I don't see where he's supposed to be there. They made a point of not having him physically at Alexandria last season. I don't see how Carol or he can just go back as if that didn't happen, as if an entire season didn't happen. Maggie has Enid and had Sasha at Hilltop, maybe Carol can have Daryl. If Daryl isn't at Kingdom with her, my opinion does change somewhat, that's true, but again, Maggie is literally on screen showing that being separated, does not actually mean being separated. You have excellent points, murph, and I appreciate that you share them with me. I simply would much rather have Carol, Daryl, Rick, Michonne, Maggie, Morgan, and Tara together and not split apart. That's the group I want to watch, and I'm completely frustrated with them getting so little time together while we endlessly watch people I don't care about. I have hated Carol being apart from TF for how long now? It seems like years. Now it most likely will continue. The writers are very good at making women the appendages of men on this show, and I can see that happening again. I don't see Daryl ending up at the kingdom at all. He left there immediately and only wanted to be back with the people he belongs with. Which is what I want Carol to do as well now that she's doing better, but I don't see it happening anymore. I'm very discouraged and am losing interest quickly. Carol staying at the kingdom, for me, is the beginning of the end of Caryl. I do get that want of wanting the characters you actually like together. I think we all feel that and times like the prison or even on the road, as a group, were things fans really enjoyed, but that is 3 seasons ago, and many, many deaths ago. It does not exist anymore. Maggie is not coming back into that group in a physical community. And that group is not all there is. Gabriel, Aaron, Rosita - they are main characters. That immediate group will never get that family, living all together again. And definitely not without the other characters. It's not who they are anymore, and it's not what the show is anymore. I think, again, going by Maggie, that Carol being at The Kingdom may actually allow for more opportunity for Carol to have scenes with 'Team Family'. That may sound weird, but looking at what's actually played out on screen and how it's been, I think that's the case. Carol and Michonne have never been anything. Again, they should have been, but they've not. Them living together for years has not had them share scenes. Rosita and Sasha shared many scenes together last season, and a lot of their relationship. It happened in spite of them living in different places. Again, Maggie and Rick's relationship was major last season and yet they lived in different places the entire season. Carol spent a season and a half in Alexandria. The only time she shared a scene with Maggie was outside of the community. We can all argue about whether that makes most sense or not, but it is what's been on screen. It's established, so it cannot legitimately be discounted like it doesn't mean anything. Carol being at the Kingdom does not mean she won't have scenes with others {Spoiler} episode one and she's already seen filming with others . And it certainly doesn't mean she doesn't care. We know that's not true, and we know that her sharing the same community does not mean she'll share scenes with them. There's a difference between Carol being physically separated and emotionally separated. She was physically around them all but because she was emotionally separated, it didn't mean anything that she was physically so close. Her being physically separated does not mean she has to be emotionally separated. Again, character after character proved otherwise last season. I just see a lot of it really differently from you. Daryl left the Kingdom because he had to go fight. He was never at the Kingdom to suddenly think he was in a haven and everything clicked and that was it, he was leaving Alexandria. I really don't understand the opinion that Daryl going to get things sorted, to actually go help his family, is a long-term rejection of the Kingdom. Same way I don't understand Carol not deciding she cares more about new Kingdom more than people she's spent years with means a long-term rejection of The Kingdom. Neither of those things were going to happen, it wasn't the point. I just don't get that. It's not black and white. Maggie going to Alexandria, taking Hilltop with her is not a rejection of Hilltop. It's not isolated communities. Neither Hilltop or the Kingdom is going to be like Oceanside. Is there anything Carol or Daryl could have done that for you would have said they may end up at The Kingdom? I just don't really get what you were expecting? We saw last season how easy it was just to go back and forth one to the other. It's not this massive separation. That's just not how the show has presented it. The communities are together right now, that's the point. I think, if there was a beginning of the dead of Caryl (which I don't think there has been) it already happened. Them being in the same place, not sharing scenes and one seemingly not even noticing the other is absolutely miserable and one of them being in a romantic relationship with someone and the other not at all being involved, says way more negative things to me. If you really believe Daryl leaving the Kingdom meant that was it, total rejection and never going back there because those he belonged with were elsewhere, then by that, that should have been the end of Caryl, but do you really believe it was? Did you see episode 10 as Daryl leaving Carol because he wanted be with the others more and he couldn't fit with Carol? I didn't. I just don't see where you're seeing it, other than 'Daryl=Alexandria and Carol=Kingdom so never the two shall meet' which just isn't what's going on on the show.
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Post by gia on May 15, 2017 22:49:44 GMT -5
You have excellent points, murph, and I appreciate that you share them with me. I simply would much rather have Carol, Daryl, Rick, Michonne, Maggie, Morgan, and Tara together and not split apart. That's the group I want to watch, and I'm completely frustrated with them getting so little time together while we endlessly watch people I don't care about. I have hated Carol being apart from TF for how long now? It seems like years. Now it most likely will continue. The writers are very good at making women the appendages of men on this show, and I can see that happening again. I don't see Daryl ending up at the kingdom at all. He left there immediately and only wanted to be back with the people he belongs with. Which is what I want Carol to do as well now that she's doing better, but I don't see it happening anymore. I'm very discouraged and am losing interest quickly. Carol staying at the kingdom, for me, is the beginning of the end of Caryl. I do get that want of wanting the characters you actually like together. I think we all feel that and times like the prison or even on the road, as a group, were things fans really enjoyed, but that is 3 seasons ago, and many, many deaths ago. It does not exist anymore. Maggie is not coming back into that group in a physical community. And that group is not all there is. Gabriel, Aaron, Rosita - they are main characters. That immediate group will never get that family, living all together again. And definitely not without the other characters. It's not who they are anymore, and it's not what the show is anymore. I think, again, going by Maggie, that Carol being at The Kingdom may actually allow for more opportunity for Carol to have scenes with 'Team Family'. That may sound weird, but looking at what's actually played out on screen and how it's been, I think that's the case. Carol and Michonne have never been anything. Again, they should have been, but they've not. Them living together for years has not had them share scenes. Rosita and Sasha shared many scenes together last season, and a lot of their relationship. It happened in spite of them living in different places. Again, Maggie and Rick's relationship was major last season and yet they lived in different places the entire season. Carol spent a season and a half in Alexandria. The only time she shared a scene with Maggie was outside of the community. We can all argue about whether that makes most sense or not, but it is what's been on screen. It's established, so it cannot legitimately be discounted like it doesn't mean anything. Carol being at the Kingdom does not mean she won't have scenes with others {Spoiler} episode one and she's already seen filming with others . And it certainly doesn't mean she doesn't care. We know that's not true, and we know that her sharing the same community does not mean she'll share scenes with them. There's a difference between Carol being physically separated and emotionally separated. She was physically around them all but because she was emotionally separated, it didn't mean anything that she was physically so close. Her being physically separated does not mean she has to be emotionally separated. Again, character after character proved otherwise last season. I just see a lot of it really differently from you. Daryl left the Kingdom because he had to go fight. He was never at the Kingdom to suddenly think he was in a haven and everything clicked and that was it, he was leaving Alexandria. I really don't understand the opinion that Daryl going to get things sorted, to actually go help his family, is a long-term rejection of the Kingdom. Same way I don't understand Carol not deciding she cares more about new Kingdom more than people she's spent years with means a long-term rejection of The Kingdom. Neither of those things were going to happen, it wasn't the point. I just don't get that. It's not black and white. Maggie going to Alexandria, taking Hilltop with her is not a rejection of Hilltop. It's not isolated communities. Neither Hilltop or the Kingdom is going to be like Oceanside. Is there anything Carol or Daryl could have done that for you would have said they may end up at The Kingdom? I just don't really get what you were expecting? We saw last season how easy it was just to go back and forth one to the other. It's not this massive separation. That's just not how the show has presented it. The communities are together right now, that's the point. I think, if there was a beginning of the dead of Caryl (which I don't think there has been) it already happened. Them being in the same place, not sharing scenes and one seemingly not even noticing the other is absolutely miserable and one of them being in a romantic relationship with someone and the other not at all being involved, says way more negative things to me. If you really believe Daryl leaving the Kingdom meant that was it, total rejection and never going back there because those he belonged with were elsewhere, then by that, that should have been the end of Caryl, but do you really believe it was? Did you see episode 10 as Daryl leaving Carol because he wanted be with the others more and he couldn't fit with Carol? I didn't. I just don't see where you're seeing it, other than 'Daryl=Alexandria and Carol=Kingdom so never the two shall meet' which just isn't what's going on on the show. I've tried to respond but the site isn't letting me, I'm guessing because the extended post is too long? It's kicked me off twice mid-answer. Maybe I'm just too long winded.
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Post by gia on May 15, 2017 23:05:11 GMT -5
Ok, murph, I'll try to remember what I posted before here. At this point it pretty much is Carol=Kingdom and Daryl=ASZ, because that's where they are. To me,if they are in two different places,they aren't going to be in a real relationship, other than a friendship. I want them to be in the same place. I don't see Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. That about sums it up. I didn't say I thought Daryl leaving meant he would never see her again, but I can't say I wasn't disappointed that he left so quickly. I did love their scenes together. But an actual relationship involves the joking, teasing, day to day things that don't happen if they live in separate places. I just don't see Daryl at the kingdom. If she stays there, I think it's the beginning of the end for them. So I'm very discouraged these days.
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Post by peachninja on May 16, 2017 4:20:17 GMT -5
Ok, murph , I'll try to remember what I posted before here. At this point it pretty much is Carol=Kingdom and Daryl=ASZ, because that's where they are. To me,if they are in two different places,they aren't going to be in a real relationship, other than a friendship. I want them to be in the same place. I don't see Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. That about sums it up. I didn't say I thought Daryl leaving meant he would never see her again, but I can't say I wasn't disappointed that he left so quickly. I did love their scenes together. But an actual relationship involves the joking, teasing, day to day things that don't happen if they live in separate places. I just don't see Daryl at the kingdom. If she stays there, I think it's the beginning of the end for them. So I'm very discouraged these days. I disagree that Carol staying at The Kingdom would be the beginning of the end. There's actually been foreshadowing to Daryl staying at The Kingdom. If Carol decides to stay there, it's very possible that Daryl would, too. We saw that she was his top priority in 7x10. He wouldn't be so willing to be without her, yet again. And I'm sorry but I'd actually prefer Carol and Daryl to stay at The Kingdom. Carol was treated like a nothing in Alexandria. Nobody noticed she was suffering, nobody reached out, nobody even really talked to her and then when she left, who asked about her? Nobody. Except Rick and Daryl (when he found out). Maggie made absolutely no mention of Carol and neither has anybody else. Who exactly is Team Family for Carol? In my opinion, Rick and Daryl at this point, and Morgan. The Kingdom would be a fine place for Carol AND Daryl. Ezekiel is selfless, literally. He's kind and he's caring. He reached out to Carol. He offered Daryl asylum after Daryl just got done insulting him, basically. He's nothing but kind and caring and so are the other Kingdom people. Carol and Daryl would benefit The Kingdom and The Kingdom would benefit them and no, that doesn't tamper their bonds with Rick or anyone else, the same way that Maggie's bonds hasn't dwindled with anyone else either. Physical seperation doesn't mean emotional seperation and it doesn't mean that the bonds you hold dwindle. The reasons why I believe Daryl would stay at The Kingdom are listed below: 1. Daryl was armed again at The Kingdom. Despite Alexandria having a crossbow, I believe, the show chose to have Daryl be armed by The Kingdom and by one of The Kingdom's protectors (Richard) 2. There was the suggestion that Ezekiel would end up respecting Daryl the same way he respects Morgan and Carol. Khary even grouped Carol and Daryl when talking about why Ezekiel let Daryl stay. 3. Daryl was nicknamed an archer in Season 5 and The Kingdom is a place of archer's. 4. The thing people seem to be completely forgetting about: The show established that Carol means more to Daryl than anything. I also believe that his past scene with Denise, when Denise expressed regret over not telling Tara that she loved her and that she could have gone with her, was foreshadowing Daryl not making the same mistake. The only times Daryl has seperated from Carol was when he wasn't around to stop it. Times where he could have chosen to go with her, he was absent.The prison where RICK banished her, Alexandria when he didn't know and then left to revenge Dwight. In 7x10, it seemed hard for him to walk away from her and it seemed hard for her to LET him walk away from her. She almost went back for him. 5. Looking at the history, he's also a character who a man of honor was attached as well as Carol stating that Daryl has his code. Daryl has even carried Carol out of a dungeon and even IF one attempts to disregard the similarities between the prison and The Kingdom, the prison being where Daryl and Carol were actually happy for a while and were who they were meant to be, versus Alexandria where neither of them were themselves, weren't comfortable OR happy, deleted scene of Daryl visually being uncomfortable with Alexandria, Daryl being gone most of the time, Carol's masks and facades, it makes complete and total sense for them both to be destined for The Kingdom. A New Start. Something specifically for Caryl, something they've both talked about. Alexandria doesn't offer that, The Kingdom does. It's not anywhere close to the beginning of the end for them. I would suggest re-watching episode 10. It wouldn't be the beginning of the end just because you personally aren't comfortable with them choosing to leave somewhere where neither was happy nor themselves and instead choosing to go somewhere for a fresh start, new beginning and a place where both of their skills would be desired, needed, appreciated and beneficial. Not that Alexandia doesn't benefit from them but they did not benefit from Alexandria. And in the grand scheme of things, it's not as needed as before. Rick has Michonne and Father Gabriel now as his right hand people, whereas Daryl has slowly and gradually stepped down from that role and is beginning to seem to be considering to want more for his life than being Rick's puppy who blindly follows his every word. Daryl showed initiative in Season 6 and I loved that. Daryl and Carol are so much more than Rick's people. They are each individuals who needs were not met in Alexandria and neither of them were really happy. Both of them deserve to flourish and reach a level of peace and happiness. I believe the show has strongly foreshadowed being Carol and Daryl's '' new start '', something they were talking about heavily in Season 5. I don't think one of them staying at The Kingdom means anything bad. Daryl might not move there immediately. It's still only the second episode being filmed. But I strongly believe good things are coming soon.
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Post by peachninja on May 16, 2017 4:24:35 GMT -5
Not t mention, Daryl was working with Carol and The Kindgom people. He could have been put with the Alexandria group at The Sanctuary but he wasn't. Either he chose to go which I think is likely or Rick told him to. But tracking has him helping The Kingdom do their attack, which I think is another sign that Daryl would go stay at The Kingdom down the line. From filming spoilers, the only reason he left was because he was being herded by walkers and had to escape.
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Post by AlienSoul on May 16, 2017 4:34:12 GMT -5
It's not anywhere close to the beginning of the end for them. I would suggest re-watching episode 10. It wouldn't be the beginning of the end just because you personally aren't comfortable with them choosing to leave somewhere where neither was happy nor themselves and instead choosing to go somewhere for a fresh start, new beginning and a place where both of their skills would be desired, needed, appreciated and beneficial. I really don't think gia has the opinion that Daryl won't move there because she personally wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I guess I'll let her speak for herself.
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Post by gia on May 16, 2017 10:18:56 GMT -5
Ok, murph , I'll try to remember what I posted before here. At this point it pretty much is Carol=Kingdom and Daryl=ASZ, because that's where they are. To me,if they are in two different places,they aren't going to be in a real relationship, other than a friendship. I want them to be in the same place. I don't see Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. That about sums it up. I didn't say I thought Daryl leaving meant he would never see her again, but I can't say I wasn't disappointed that he left so quickly. I did love their scenes together. But an actual relationship involves the joking, teasing, day to day things that don't happen if they live in separate places. I just don't see Daryl at the kingdom. If she stays there, I think it's the beginning of the end for them. So I'm very discouraged these days. I disagree that Carol staying at The Kingdom would be the beginning of the end. There's actually been foreshadowing to Daryl staying at The Kingdom. If Carol decides to stay there, it's very possible that Daryl would, too. We saw that she was his top priority in 7x10. He wouldn't be so willing to be without her, yet again. And I'm sorry but I'd actually prefer Carol and Daryl to stay at The Kingdom. Carol was treated like a nothing in Alexandria. Nobody noticed she was suffering, nobody reached out, nobody even really talked to her and then when she left, who asked about her? Nobody. Except Rick and Daryl (when he found out). Maggie made absolutely no mention of Carol and neither has anybody else. Who exactly is Team Family for Carol? In my opinion, Rick and Daryl at this point, and Morgan. The Kingdom would be a fine place for Carol AND Daryl. Ezekiel is selfless, literally. He's kind and he's caring. He reached out to Carol. He offered Daryl asylum after Daryl just got done insulting him, basically. He's nothing but kind and caring and so are the other Kingdom people. Carol and Daryl would benefit The Kingdom and The Kingdom would benefit them and no, that doesn't tamper their bonds with Rick or anyone else, the same way that Maggie's bonds hasn't dwindled with anyone else either. Physical seperation doesn't mean emotional seperation and it doesn't mean that the bonds you hold dwindle. The reasons why I believe Daryl would stay at The Kingdom are listed below: 1. Daryl was armed again at The Kingdom. Despite Alexandria having a crossbow, I believe, the show chose to have Daryl be armed by The Kingdom and by one of The Kingdom's protectors (Richard) 2. There was the suggestion that Ezekiel would end up respecting Daryl the same way he respects Morgan and Carol. Khary even grouped Carol and Daryl when talking about why Ezekiel let Daryl stay. 3. Daryl was nicknamed an archer in Season 5 and The Kingdom is a place of archer's. 4. The thing people seem to be completely forgetting about: The show established that Carol means more to Daryl than anything. I also believe that his past scene with Denise, when Denise expressed regret over not telling Tara that she loved her and that she could have gone with her, was foreshadowing Daryl not making the same mistake. The only times Daryl has seperated from Carol was when he wasn't around to stop it. Times where he could have chosen to go with her, he was absent.The prison where RICK banished her, Alexandria when he didn't know and then left to revenge Dwight. In 7x10, it seemed hard for him to walk away from her and it seemed hard for her to LET him walk away from her. She almost went back for him. 5. Looking at the history, he's also a character who a man of honor was attached as well as Carol stating that Daryl has his code. Daryl has even carried Carol out of a dungeon and even IF one attempts to disregard the similarities between the prison and The Kingdom, the prison being where Daryl and Carol were actually happy for a while and were who they were meant to be, versus Alexandria where neither of them were themselves, weren't comfortable OR happy, deleted scene of Daryl visually being uncomfortable with Alexandria, Daryl being gone most of the time, Carol's masks and facades, it makes complete and total sense for them both to be destined for The Kingdom. A New Start. Something specifically for Caryl, something they've both talked about. Alexandria doesn't offer that, The Kingdom does. It's not anywhere close to the beginning of the end for them. I would suggest re-watching episode 10. It wouldn't be the beginning of the end just because you personally aren't comfortable with them choosing to leave somewhere where neither was happy nor themselves and instead choosing to go somewhere for a fresh start, new beginning and a place where both of their skills would be desired, needed, appreciated and beneficial. Not that Alexandia doesn't benefit from them but they did not benefit from Alexandria. And in the grand scheme of things, it's not as needed as before. Rick has Michonne and Father Gabriel now as his right hand people, whereas Daryl has slowly and gradually stepped down from that role and is beginning to seem to be considering to want more for his life than being Rick's puppy who blindly follows his every word. Daryl showed initiative in Season 6 and I loved that. Daryl and Carol are so much more than Rick's people. They are each individuals who needs were not met in Alexandria and neither of them were really happy. Both of them deserve to flourish and reach a level of peace and happiness. I believe the show has strongly foreshadowed being Carol and Daryl's '' new start '', something they were talking about heavily in Season 5. I don't think one of them staying at The Kingdom means anything bad. Daryl might not move there immediately. It's still only the second episode being filmed. But I strongly believe good things are coming soon. You don't have to be sorry for wanting them both at the kingdom, I totally understand that. I just don't see Daryl wanting to be there. Just because of his character and his loyalty to TF and how he was there before. I just don't see it happening. What I'm afraid of is them being in two separate places, and that to me would be the end of Caryl. It has nothing to do with them being at/leaving ASZ. I don't particularly like ASZ. I just feel like that's where the show is going, one in each place, and that's not good. I appreciate everyone giving me more encouragement, and I will consider all you've said. It just seems very worrisome to me at this point....
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Post by gia on May 16, 2017 10:22:22 GMT -5
It's not anywhere close to the beginning of the end for them. I would suggest re-watching episode 10. It wouldn't be the beginning of the end just because you personally aren't comfortable with them choosing to leave somewhere where neither was happy nor themselves and instead choosing to go somewhere for a fresh start, new beginning and a place where both of their skills would be desired, needed, appreciated and beneficial. I really don't think gia has the opinion that Daryl won't move there because she personally wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I guess I'll let her speak for herself. Of course Daryl takes into account my feelings and wishes before he does anything, how dare you suggest otherwise. 😊 Thank you, I appreciated that. And you're right.
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Post by Starlight on May 16, 2017 10:52:08 GMT -5
Literally no one knows a thing about season 8 yet. All this omg "the bands" "the bands" "the bands" they mean this and they mean that. No one unless they have a spoiler source know what is the meaning of the bands. And instead of looking at a postive like peachninja just posted. Carylers are jumping straight to negative as usual without even considering that maybe just maybe the bands actually don't have much meaning other than to show who is on each team. And who knows who choose the teams. For all we know Rick could have asked Carol to be apart of Ezekiel's team, because he wants someone he can trust on that team. Rick doesn't know Ezekiel and the last person Rick trusted was Jardis.
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Post by murph on May 16, 2017 11:26:31 GMT -5
Ok, murph , I'll try to remember what I posted before here. At this point it pretty much is Carol=Kingdom and Daryl=ASZ, because that's where they are. To me,if they are in two different places,they aren't going to be in a real relationship, other than a friendship. I want them to be in the same place. I don't see Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. That about sums it up. I didn't say I thought Daryl leaving meant he would never see her again, but I can't say I wasn't disappointed that he left so quickly. I did love their scenes together. But an actual relationship involves the joking, teasing, day to day things that don't happen if they live in separate places. I just don't see Daryl at the kingdom. If she stays there, I think it's the beginning of the end for them. So I'm very discouraged these days. I just think what's on screen disproves this. And I've already pointed that out. Carol didn't have any of those things with the Alexandrians she was around. And being separated has not meant that relationships are no longer tended to. And I just don't get what Daryl not wanting to be at The Kingdom is based off. I just don't understand how it can be looked at like it was an either/or choice, cuz it wasn't about that. No, you didn't say you thought for Daryl it meant not seeing her again, but you did say him leaving meant he didn't want to be there because he wanted to be with the people he belonged with. That would mean Carol is not included in the people he belongs with/wants to be with. That's what that would mean, by that logic. If that's the logic, you need to follow it all the way, until, I hope, you have to reevaluate it because it doesn't blend with something else you think. It would mean Daryl feels he belongs with Maggie and Sasha and at the Hilltop, because that's where he went. It would mean Daryl wants to be isolated and removed, because he left the Kingdom to sit on a bench in the dark by himself. It would mean Daryl chose that, over Carol. That is a massive statement about Caryl. A very, very negative one. If you think Daryl's loyalty is to a Team Family that doesn't include Carol, over Carol, then I think that's it. That definitely overrides anything to do with the Kingdom or not. Gets even worse actually cuz it means it brings in another point you really hate, where the women are just trailing behind the men. Cuz it would mean Daryl left Carol because he feels he belongs with people other than her, and yet Carol chased after him because he's the thing she'll make a choice for. So he chooses everyone but her, but she chooses him (the influence of him) over everything, including herself. That just sucks. And is so not what happened. Daryl was at the Kingdom to get help for an on-going problem. It wasn't an option of a destination. It wasn't a choice and that's it, it forever means something. And he did what Daryl, Caryl, and Daryl with Carol is: he kept going with the mission, kept the fight going, was active and responsive, and chose to protect Carol, by having her stay back as he went to handle the danger. Caryl didn't even have a conversation about goodbye or what it meant for her to stay there while he left again, because they didn't have to, because it was not about that, that wasn't what was happening. Leaving the Kingdom was to go and deal with the shit that was actually happening, as he was already in the process of doing. That's it. It was the right thing to do. The only choice that was actually made was to protect Carol by keeping her out of it, a behaviour he has an established pattern of at this point. Character wise, once things are more settled and less fluid, Daryl is either going to want to be where Carol is, or he won't. That's really about it. Story wise, The Kingdom itself is the place where, like Carol, Daryl also got his fight back, literally got his weapon back and was rearmed. And last season it was where he was healthiest. He was absent from Alexandria, a mess in the Sanctuary and at Hilltop he was withdrawn and lost but at The Kingdom he was strong and competent. He bounced around everywhere and the Kingdom is the only place he was good in. Like I said, if Daryl doesn't end up at the Kingdom with her, then yeah, it does change my opinion. But I think I'd find that really the end for me. Cuz Carol doesn't have a place in Alexandria. I think that's clear. And if she's been taken away from there, if they've all moved on without her and found new roles and bonds and she's just being dropped back in where she has no place like none of it matters, I think that says terrible things about Carol's importance (lack of) as a character. I think Caryl prolly do need to be together in the same community if they are canon (depending on what exactly is happening overall plotwise), but it's not a disqualifier to them becoming canon. They are a pairing that has been separated a million times. On-going theme. It has never decided their relationship. That's been made clear again and again. I think this season is the last chance for them to go canon either way. I don't think it can credibly happen after the time-jump. I think it will happen but honestly, if it doesn't, because it's not going to, maybe even more reason for Carol to be at the Kingdom finding something for herself that doesn't have a massive boundary that can't ever be passed and that isn't only an ideal of 'family', as opposed to actual substance. For audience too. Well, Caryl/Carol fans, to actually have an answer and move on with what the story actually is. I don't think that's what's happening. I think Gimple has put a lot of effort into making them an on-going, paralleling, running storyline he thinks is genius, whilst he's squeezed as much potential out of them as individuals as he could before actually pulling the canon trigger. That's what I think has been happening. But if it isn't, then we are well past the point where fans need to know.
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Post by murph on May 16, 2017 11:37:33 GMT -5
Literally no one knows a thing about season 8 yet. All this omg "the bands" "the bands" "the bands" they mean this and they mean that. No one unless they have a spoiler source know what is the meaning of the bands. And instead of looking at a postive like peachninja just posted. Carylers are jumping straight to negative as usual without even considering that maybe just maybe the bands actually don't have much meaning other than to show who is on each team. And who knows who choose the teams. For all we know Rick could have asked Carol to be apart of Ezekiel's team, because he wants someone he can trust on that team. Rick doesn't know Ezekiel and the last person Rick trusted was Jardis. Have the bands really been that big a deal for some? I can only speak for myself but not one of my posts has mentioned them. It isn't really coming into my thinking much at all. It's definitely not deciding any opinion for me. I think Rick encouraging Carol to be on that team is totally valid. Not because he doesn't necessarily trust, but just cuz it does make sense.
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Post by Ripley on May 16, 2017 12:49:38 GMT -5
Please remember to use spoiler tags when discussing filming spoilers since some members do not want to be spoiler and guests can read this area, thanks. Here are instructions for spoiler-tagging any fiilming spoilers you wish to discuss, thanks, y'all If you happen to find yourself going over the same points with the same person more than 3 times, nobody will change any minds when opinions are polar opposites.Views tend to get more rigid and polarized as is, I have often observed. It is, frankly, too early to tell what 100% is going to happen with Carol in terms of where she will decide to settle down- IF she does that at all IMO.Everyone has hopes and preferences, but those may or may not line up with the evidence from filming and any other spoilers currently known. As more info comes in or develops, opinions may change. I am glad to see so many wonderful and great ideas of what members want for Carol in season 8.
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Post by Starlight on May 16, 2017 13:07:48 GMT -5
Literally no one knows a thing about season 8 yet. All this omg "the bands" "the bands" "the bands" they mean this and they mean that. No one unless they have a spoiler source know what is the meaning of the bands. And instead of looking at a postive like peachninja just posted. Carylers are jumping straight to negative as usual without even considering that maybe just maybe the bands actually don't have much meaning other than to show who is on each team. And who knows who choose the teams. For all we know Rick could have asked Carol to be apart of Ezekiel's team, because he wants someone he can trust on that team. Rick doesn't know Ezekiel and the last person Rick trusted was Jardis. Have the bands really been that big a deal for some? I can only speak for myself but not one of my posts has mentioned them. It isn't really coming into my thinking much at all. It's definitely not deciding any opinion for me. I think Rick encouraging Carol to be on that team is totally valid. Not because he doesn't necessarily trust, but just cuz it does make sense. {Spoiler} Going by posts on tumblr and forums, the bands is the only thing alot of fans are focusing on, instead of what is happening the characters banding together as one aganist Negan. The bands are being used as the the thing to dedicate the stories for the rest of the season or seasons.
I think Rick probably doesn't trust Ezekiel, last time Rick meet Ezekiel he begged Ezekiel to help him and Ezekiel said no. Rick has no idea if Ezekiel would go back to the passive Ezekiel who doesn't want to fight... Carol being signed to the The kindgom group would give Rick peace of mind that what they have planned will be followed through to the end... And right now they might be doing the comic Ezekiel looses his fight, because he looses his knights and Shiva... which will just have been rolling my eyes because Ben's death should have been the thing that ensured Ezekiel keeps fighting and I really don't care about the knights or shiva.
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Post by Starlight on May 16, 2017 13:21:26 GMT -5
I really don't want Carol to disappear in season 8. Since SG took over Carol has literally disappeared every season. Season 4-banishment. Season 5-got hit by a car and taken to the the Grade Hospital. Season 6 - Ran off. Season 7 - Spend her time isolated at the creepy house with no screentime. So I'm praying that SG drops this so called arc with Carol in season 8.
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Post by Ripley on May 16, 2017 13:51:51 GMT -5
THIS^^^^^- let's have Carol around for an entire season even if she isn't in every episode. I feel as though Carol goes south with the butterflies, or migrates with the birds every year in a different season. Yes, I know they have a large cast to juggle, but she is the only one who regularly disappears.
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Post by gia on May 16, 2017 14:48:42 GMT -5
Ok, murph , I'll try to remember what I posted before here. At this point it pretty much is Carol=Kingdom and Daryl=ASZ, because that's where they are. To me,if they are in two different places,they aren't going to be in a real relationship, other than a friendship. I want them to be in the same place. I don't see Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. That about sums it up. I didn't say I thought Daryl leaving meant he would never see her again, but I can't say I wasn't disappointed that he left so quickly. I did love their scenes together. But an actual relationship involves the joking, teasing, day to day things that don't happen if they live in separate places. I just don't see Daryl at the kingdom. If she stays there, I think it's the beginning of the end for them. So I'm very discouraged these days. I just think what's on screen disproves this. And I've already pointed that out. Carol didn't have any of those things with the Alexandrians she was around. And being separated has not meant that relationships are no longer tended to. And I just don't get what Daryl not wanting to be at The Kingdom is based off. I just don't understand how it can be looked at like it was an either/or choice, cuz it wasn't about that. No, you didn't say you thought for Daryl it meant not seeing her again, but you did say him leaving meant he didn't want to be there because he wanted to be with the people he belonged with. That would mean Carol is not included in the people he belongs with/wants to be with. That's what that would mean, by that logic. If that's the logic, you need to follow it all the way, until, I hope, you have to reevaluate it because it doesn't blend with something else you think. It would mean Daryl feels he belongs with Maggie and Sasha and at the Hilltop, because that's where he went. It would mean Daryl wants to be isolated and removed, because he left the Kingdom to sit on a bench in the dark by himself. It would mean Daryl chose that, over Carol. That is a massive statement about Caryl. A very, very negative one. If you think Daryl's loyalty is to a Team Family that doesn't include Carol, over Carol, then I think that's it. That definitely overrides anything to do with the Kingdom or not. Gets even worse actually cuz it means it brings in another point you really hate, where the women are just trailing behind the men. Cuz it would mean Daryl left Carol because he feels he belongs with people other than her, and yet Carol chased after him because he's the thing she'll make a choice for. So he chooses everyone but her, but she chooses him (the influence of him) over everything, including herself. That just sucks. And is so not what happened. Daryl was at the Kingdom to get help for an on-going problem. It wasn't an option of a destination. It wasn't a choice and that's it, it forever means something. And he did what Daryl, Caryl, and Daryl with Carol is: he kept going with the mission, kept the fight going, was active and responsive, and chose to protect Carol, by having her stay back as he went to handle the danger. Caryl didn't even have a conversation about goodbye or what it meant for her to stay there while he left again, because they didn't have to, because it was not about that, that wasn't what was happening. Leaving the Kingdom was to go and deal with the shit that was actually happening, as he was already in the process of doing. That's it. It was the right thing to do. The only choice that was actually made was to protect Carol by keeping her out of it, a behaviour he has an established pattern of at this point. Character wise, once things are more settled and less fluid, Daryl is either going to want to be where Carol is, or he won't. That's really about it. Story wise, The Kingdom itself is the place where, like Carol, Daryl also got his fight back, literally got his weapon back and was rearmed. And last season it was where he was healthiest. He was absent from Alexandria, a mess in the Sanctuary and at Hilltop he was withdrawn and lost but at The Kingdom he was strong and competent. He bounced around everywhere and the Kingdom is the only place he was good in. Like I said, if Daryl doesn't end up at the Kingdom with her, then yeah, it does change my opinion. But I think I'd find that really the end for me. Cuz Carol doesn't have a place in Alexandria. I think that's clear. And if she's been taken away from there, if they've all moved on without her and found new roles and bonds and she's just being dropped back in where she has no place like none of it matters, I think that says terrible things about Carol's importance (lack of) as a character. I think Caryl prolly do need to be together in the same community if they are canon (depending on what exactly is happening overall plotwise), but it's not a disqualifier to them becoming canon. They are a pairing that has been separated a million times. On-going theme. It has never decided their relationship. That's been made clear again and again. I think this season is the last chance for them to go canon either way. I don't think it can credibly happen after the time-jump. I think it will happen but honestly, if it doesn't, because it's not going to, maybe even more reason for Carol to be at the Kingdom finding something for herself that doesn't have a massive boundary that can't ever be passed and that isn't only an ideal of 'family', as opposed to actual substance. For audience too. Well, Caryl/Carol fans, to actually have an answer and move on with what the story actually is. I don't think that's what's happening. I think Gimple has put a lot of effort into making them an on-going, paralleling, running storyline he thinks is genius, whilst he's squeezed as much potential out of them as individuals as he could before actually pulling the canon trigger. That's what I think has been happening. But if it isn't, then we are well past the point where fans need to know. We are actually in agreement on them needing to be in the same place. That's my issue. I don't picture Daryl wanting to be at the kingdom. I would love it if that happened. So I would love it if you are right. I do think Daryl is loyal to TF. And when he saw that Carol wouldn't be going back with him to fight, he went back to them rather than doing what he was supposed to do, which was get the kingdom in the fight. "Carol's not coming? I'm heading back to my people then." That's a choice of his people over the kingdom, not over Carol. Her choice at that point was to stay in her house. He let her have that choice, but if that was her choice then he was outta there. You are making me feel better about it all, though, so thank you for talking it over with me and sharing your insights.
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Post by greaterpursuit on May 16, 2017 19:10:44 GMT -5
Lots of great discussion about Carol's story arc and where she should settle. For me, the major consideration is that TWD is Rick's story. Any character not directly involved somehow in Rick's story is going to get "second-tier" treatment. Since Rick is going to be settled at ASZ, I'd like to see Carol there or at least strongly tied to it. If she's anywhere else, expect yet another season of playing "where's Carol?".
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Post by Starlight on May 16, 2017 20:05:39 GMT -5
Lots of great discussion about Carol's story arc and where she should settle. For me, the major consideration is that TWD is Rick's story. Any character not directly involved somehow in Rick's story is going to get "second-tier" treatment. Since Rick is going to be settled at ASZ, I'd like to see Carol there or at least strongly tied to it. If she's anywhere else, expect yet another season of playing "where's Carol?". {Spoiler} In the comics ater AOW The kindgom literally disappears with Ezekiel. who only makes about 3 appearances and the third is his head on a stick..The action is at ASZ and Hilltop. Which is where the Alpha / Whisperers story really kicks in to gear.
So there is a real possibility that Carol could completely disappear of the show yet again. If SG follows the comics... and from SG writing he isn't all that interested in the kindgom as it stands. So I think that if you are Carol fan you should be praying that Daryl joins Carol at the kindgom. Otherwise her screentime could even up resembling season 7's or even worse.
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Post by AlienSoul on May 17, 2017 3:37:15 GMT -5
And TWD being Rick's story is precisely the main reason why I have little hope that Daryl will move to the Kingdom with Carol. It has nothing to do with me thinking he will choose anyone over Carol. Daryl is the face of the show, the fan-favourite, the cash cow, and they'll want him where the action is. Of course, they could expand the Kingdom's role in the comics, have Carol (and, I suppose, Daryl, if he does end up there) do a lot of running back and forth between the communities. I have even considered the idea, though I find it improbable, they might simply establish Carol's relationship with the Kingdom before the time jump but not have her move here until after Ezekiel is dead (since as Starlight pointed out, Ezekiel/Michonne/the Kingdom do disappear after the jump and don't reappear until the few issues leading up to Ezekiel's death) so as not to remove her from the story but still justify her leading the Kingdom in the future. Because I do think she will lead the Kingdom eventually, as it seems comic!Michonne is heading the same way, and in order to do that, she can't be a stranger to them or the Kingdomites choosing her over their own wouldn't make any sense. No, Carol and Michonne are definitely not the same character, but I strongly believe this will happen. And I can't say Carol wouldn't deserve to go as high as she can go. There are two things I believe will happen: - Carol will move to the Kingdom at some point, whether it be this season or after Ezekiel's fall. - Carol won't disappear the way Michonne did in the comics after the jump. I think they will find a way to weave her into the story just like how they find ways to weave Daryl into the story when he doesn't exist in the comics. And they've done it with Carol before. Created original material for her as well as remixed comic material for her, and I think they'll do the same for her after the jump. I'm confident she won't disappear. Might she get little screentime? Oh yeah, it's possible. But they'll find a way to keep her around.
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Post by Starlight on May 17, 2017 9:17:33 GMT -5
And TWD being Rick's story is precisely the main reason why I have little hope that Daryl will move to the Kingdom with Carol. It has nothing to do with me thinking he will choose anyone over Carol. Daryl is the face of the show, the fan-favourite, the cash cow, and they'll want him where the action is. Of course, they could expand the Kingdom's role in the comics, have Carol (and, I suppose, Daryl, if he does end up there) do a lot of running back and forth between the communities. I have even considered the idea, though I find it improbable, they might simply establish Carol's relationship with the Kingdom before the time jump but not have her move here until after Ezekiel is dead (since as Starlight pointed out, Ezekiel/Michonne/the Kingdom do disappear after the jump and don't reappear until the few issues leading up to Ezekiel's death) so as not to remove her from the story but still justify her leading the Kingdom in the future. Because I do think she will lead the Kingdom eventually, as it seems comic!Michonne is heading the same way, and in order to do that, she can't be a stranger to them or the Kingdomites choosing her over their own wouldn't make any sense. No, Carol and Michonne are definitely not the same character, but I strongly believe this will happen. And I can't say Carol wouldn't deserve to go as high as she can go. There are two things I believe will happen: - Carol will move to the Kingdom at some point, whether it be this season or after Ezekiel's fall. - Carol won't disappear the way Michonne did in the comics after the jump. I think they will find a way to weave her into the story just like how they find ways to weave Daryl into the story when he doesn't exist in the comics. And they've done it with Carol before. Created original material for her as well as remixed comic material for her, and I think they'll do the same for her after the jump. I'm confident she won't disappear. Might she get little screentime? Oh yeah, it's possible. But they'll find a way to keep her around. I don't know why you think the show wouldn't move Daryl to the kindgom... since season 6 Daryl has spent little time in ASZ and around Rick. The Rickyl episode turned out to be more about introducing Jesus and canoning Richonne. Daryl is no longer Rick's right hand man that role is Michonne. And in season 7 Aaron and Fr G also filled that role too. The show needs to find a role for Daryl they can't just have him floating doing nothing getting no development as a character. I think the fact that Ezekiel right hand man gave Daryl his new crossbow at the kindgom... at the kindgom Daryl went against Rick's wishes... Daryl showed that Carol is the most important person to him.. I think Daryl will eventually end up at the Kindgom.what his role is, I'm not sure. The show could use him as a runner going back and forward between the locations. Similar how they had him bing pong through season 7. And Michonne only disappears after AOW, because she decides to become a pirate... and there is zero chance of that happening on the show... although I think Tara will end up joining the oceanside group after AOW. I just don't see Tara agreeing with Rick's descision to keep Negan alive... and I can't see her forgiving Dwight either.
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on May 17, 2017 13:18:26 GMT -5
Sorry that's not the topic. But these carol vacations every year looks like this yeah im no good with ps
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Post by murph on May 17, 2017 17:11:58 GMT -5
Have the bands really been that big a deal for some? I can only speak for myself but not one of my posts has mentioned them. It isn't really coming into my thinking much at all. It's definitely not deciding any opinion for me. I think Rick encouraging Carol to be on that team is totally valid. Not because he doesn't necessarily trust, but just cuz it does make sense. {Spoiler} Going by posts on tumblr and forums, the bands is the only thing alot of fans are focusing on, instead of what is happening the characters banding together as one aganist Negan. The bands are being used as the the thing to dedicate the stories for the rest of the season or seasons.
I think Rick probably doesn't trust Ezekiel, last time Rick meet Ezekiel he begged Ezekiel to help him and Ezekiel said no. Rick has no idea if Ezekiel would go back to the passive Ezekiel who doesn't want to fight... Carol being signed to the The kindgom group would give Rick peace of mind that what they have planned will be followed through to the end... And right now they might be doing the comic Ezekiel looses his fight, because he looses his knights and Shiva... which will just have been rolling my eyes because Ben's death should have been the thing that ensured Ezekiel keeps fighting and I really don't care about the knights or shiva. I guess it depends why people are upset about the bands, in what people believe it means and then what they believe that thing means. But like you indicated, the bands themselves really don't tell the how of the story, which I think is the important part. I think it would be valid for Rick not to overly trust Ezekiel, but I just don't think it's going to be a thing. I could personally do without it too, given the Gregory factor. I think Kingdom and Alexandria and such will be go Team go. But Carol staying in that group just makes sense for like you say, Rick having someone he does know on side. I don't think it will be against Ezekiel though, as much as it's just for Carol, if that makes sense.
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Post by murph on May 17, 2017 17:22:57 GMT -5
And TWD being Rick's story is precisely the main reason why I have little hope that Daryl will move to the Kingdom with Carol. It has nothing to do with me thinking he will choose anyone over Carol. Daryl is the face of the show, the fan-favourite, the cash cow, and they'll want him where the action is. Of course, they could expand the Kingdom's role in the comics, have Carol (and, I suppose, Daryl, if he does end up there) do a lot of running back and forth between the communities. I have even considered the idea, though I find it improbable, they might simply establish Carol's relationship with the Kingdom before the time jump but not have her move here until after Ezekiel is dead (since as Starlight pointed out, Ezekiel/Michonne/the Kingdom do disappear after the jump and don't reappear until the few issues leading up to Ezekiel's death) so as not to remove her from the story but still justify her leading the Kingdom in the future. Because I do think she will lead the Kingdom eventually, as it seems comic!Michonne is heading the same way, and in order to do that, she can't be a stranger to them or the Kingdomites choosing her over their own wouldn't make any sense. No, Carol and Michonne are definitely not the same character, but I strongly believe this will happen. And I can't say Carol wouldn't deserve to go as high as she can go. There are two things I believe will happen: - Carol will move to the Kingdom at some point, whether it be this season or after Ezekiel's fall. - Carol won't disappear the way Michonne did in the comics after the jump. I think they will find a way to weave her into the story just like how they find ways to weave Daryl into the story when he doesn't exist in the comics. And they've done it with Carol before. Created original material for her as well as remixed comic material for her, and I think they'll do the same for her after the jump. I'm confident she won't disappear. Might she get little screentime? Oh yeah, it's possible. But they'll find a way to keep her around. I always find the perception of the Rickyl relationship really interesting, because it's quite removed from what actually happens on screen. Rick and Daryl have spent entire half seasons apart. Rick has a new, romantic and priority relationship that he's never even talked to Daryl about. Rick has new relationships that fulfill the roles what Daryl used to, to him. Rick gets reassurances, support, and muscle from other people who are not Daryl. But none of it has hindered the idea that Rick and Daryl still incredibly close. That in itself to me is prove of why I really don't think Daryl being separated from Rick is unlikely, because it's been the case for seasons now, when it actually comes down to it. If you don't believe Carol will disappear (and I agree with you) then why can't Carol also be in the same space as Daryl? If she's actually involved and gets focus, then isn't that where Daryl will be too, with the action, like you said? And Daryl can visit other communities more than Carol does, same way others have, like Rosita or Jesus, going back and forth so much, getting more screen time that way.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 17, 2017 19:59:13 GMT -5
]I always find the perception of the Rickyl relationship really interesting, because it's quite removed from what actually happens on screen. Rick and Daryl have spent entire half seasons apart. Rick has a new, romantic and priority relationship that he's never even talked to Daryl about. Rick has new relationships that fulfill the roles what Daryl used to, to him. Rick gets reassurances, support, and muscle from other people who are not Daryl. But none of it has hindered the idea that Rick and Daryl still incredibly close. That in itself to me is prove of why I really don't think Daryl being separated from Rick is unlikely, because it's been the case for seasons now, when it actually comes down to it. If you don't believe Carol will disappear (and I agree with you) then why can't Carol also be in the same space as Daryl? If she's actually involved and gets focus, then isn't that where Daryl will be too, with the action, like you said? And Daryl can visit other communities more than Carol does, same way others have, like Rosita or Jesus, going back and forth so much, getting more screen time that way. I've always understood that Rickyl was really a Norman/Andy thing in the fandom rather than a Rick/Daryl thing on the show. Yes, Rick and Daryl had the "you're my brother" scene, and they were close at the beginning of S6, but I agree that others have taken on the role of being the closest to Rick (as a partner in every sense in Michonne's case) and then Aaron and Gabriel are playing deputy roles. I can easily see Daryl moving between communities as he has established relationships with different characters.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 17, 2017 20:14:41 GMT -5
One thing I love about Caryl is that they are both rather independent. They have each had their own stories (as frustrating as the separations were) and they are each do-ers. They keep busy. They care for others and it leads to both of them taking on responsibility. The latter can actually be seen as a bit sad because it might reflect their feelings of self-worth, but no matter what the actors can each handle whatever story they are put into (and as much as I'm not always thrilled with either Daryl or Carol's stories all the time, I do give NR credit for making a go of it as MMB does). So I think that Gimple has a lot of flexibility with the characters. Caryl can be canon, but I think Daryl and Carol can still be who they are and honestly, I don't think it will be a let down to have them paired romantically. I think there is a ton of potential for great scenes aside from any romantic ones (which I understand will not be everyone's cup of tea honestly).
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Post by murph on May 18, 2017 1:56:55 GMT -5
]I always find the perception of the Rickyl relationship really interesting, because it's quite removed from what actually happens on screen. Rick and Daryl have spent entire half seasons apart. Rick has a new, romantic and priority relationship that he's never even talked to Daryl about. Rick has new relationships that fulfill the roles what Daryl used to, to him. Rick gets reassurances, support, and muscle from other people who are not Daryl. But none of it has hindered the idea that Rick and Daryl still incredibly close. That in itself to me is prove of why I really don't think Daryl being separated from Rick is unlikely, because it's been the case for seasons now, when it actually comes down to it. If you don't believe Carol will disappear (and I agree with you) then why can't Carol also be in the same space as Daryl? If she's actually involved and gets focus, then isn't that where Daryl will be too, with the action, like you said? And Daryl can visit other communities more than Carol does, same way others have, like Rosita or Jesus, going back and forth so much, getting more screen time that way. I've always understood that Rickyl was really a Norman/Andy thing in the fandom rather than a Rick/Daryl thing on the show. Yes, Rick and Daryl had the "you're my brother" scene, and they were close at the beginning of S6, but I agree that others have taken on the role of being the closest to Rick (as a partner in every sense in Michonne's case) and then Aaron and Gabriel are playing deputy roles. I can easily see Daryl moving between communities as he has established relationships with different characters. I think it's actually quite a success for the show, really. One of the very few when it comes to portrayal of relationships (all and any kind of relationship) on the show. The audience for the large majority completely buy into that relationship, but the writers themselves don't have to focus everything around it. Perception wise, it works well for Gimple and co. I agree with you, and Daryl being able to move around helps Daryl be Daryl, too. Allows him the physical freedom.
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Post by murph on May 22, 2017 23:59:11 GMT -5
As I've seen the 'Carol is comic Michonne' discussion being a thing again (and I need a distraction) I figured I'd comment on it and here seemed most appropriate without making a specific thread for it.
I don't think 'Carol is comic Michonne' should be dismissed, because I think it's quite clear in a lot of ways, she is. Gimple has absolutely used Comic Michonne's storylining as a path and guidance for Carol's, way, way more than any other character. And if we don't acknowledge that in speculation I think it leads for people getting easily upset when actually, filming shows something that does signify following those storylines, as it has done numerous times. But I think it's really, really important to acknowledge how she has been given Comic Michonne's plots, and it does not include like for like. It's been pretty established pattern to be honest and I don't see why that should suddenly change. The characters she interacts with, specifically new, individual relationships that are given focus for her, are Comic Michonne's characters. Location is another. Gimple is damn consistent in what the portrayal means though. It's never once meant romantic relationship, instead again and again he has discounted it. The characters and locations may be the same, but the behaviour and the approach of each character is different. That's a choice Gimple has made, just as much as he's made to link Carol to Comic Michonne. If the latter is being considered, so should the first.
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on May 23, 2017 5:48:02 GMT -5
I want Carol to go back with her family. With the people who were in her worst moments
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
Posts: 1,749
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Post by Meggo358 on May 24, 2017 9:56:14 GMT -5
I want Carol to go back with her family. With the people who were in her worst moments this makes me think of Lori, Andrea and Tyreese. : (
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