atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
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Post by atlanta on Mar 7, 2017 8:41:30 GMT -5
Can he lead some community?
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Post by honkytonkwoman on Mar 7, 2017 9:11:29 GMT -5
I don't see Daryl as a leader.
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
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Post by Meggo358 on Mar 7, 2017 9:12:24 GMT -5
Daryls a team player (when he's not in self-pity mode) but he needs someone else that he trusts making the calls and giving the orders
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Post by dark sister on Mar 7, 2017 9:16:01 GMT -5
No, Daryl is a follower. I think he'd help enforce rules, plans, etc, but he needs someone else to give him those orders.
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Post by murph on Mar 7, 2017 9:16:21 GMT -5
I think he'll always be at the side of the leader. Someone relied on and someone capable and someone who wants to be heavily involved. But I don't think he's the leader. But whether Rick or Carol, I think he would be extremely important to their role of leading.
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Post by MorganBGone on Mar 7, 2017 9:33:25 GMT -5
I'm a maybe in this in the sense that we did as that Daryl is able to lead, in a capacity, at the prison. He was shown taking initiative and himself organizing a run, seemingly without prompting. Do I see him as a sole community leader? No... but I can see him as someone taking responsibility for a portfolio of sorts within a community without having to be dictated to and "managed" in that role. (Or, in other words, I think he demonstrates far more natural leadership and independent decision-making capacity when he feels grounded (ie has Carol)... and Rick's not in the dominant brother/leader role.)
If we took the Kingdom as a model (because I'm determined to have my way and be rid of Rickyl, damn it), I could see Carol's managing the stability of the community itself (which she seemed to be doing to a significant extent at the prison) and Daryl's leading the, uh, knights (can they at least stop wearing the sports equipment??) -- and thus being responsibility for runs, adding newbies, etc. Both vital roles, without one's really managing the other...
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Post by Ripley on Mar 7, 2017 10:14:21 GMT -5
I have always seen Daryl as a super-skilled, talented # 2-3 to leaders since we see him as Rick's number 3 for most of the series and heard the backstory of his being one of Merle's men pre-ZA. He has worked with Aaron, under Aaron actually as an ASZ recruiter, so his entire history is that of being a non-leader himself.
AT the prison, we know Daryl and Glenn worked together and sometimes alone to bring in survivors such as Bob, Lizzie and Mika's family and many others.
I think Daryl does very well when he is given a mandate, like recruiting for new survivors. I think for him, knowing and agreeing with his mission and his limits enables him to work on his own well. The one time Daryl did try to make a leadership decision, with Dwight and group, it ended badly for him in taking a chance.
I think with a good leader who would make sure Daryl is very comfortable and in agreement with the mandate and mission, Daryl can and will work very hard for himself and the group of which he is a part.
AS a straight up leader- not so much because I think Daryl's background and history would cause him to question his own decisions, as he did when Dwight and Sherry betrayed his offer and stole his bike plus his stuff.
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Post by MorganBGone on Mar 7, 2017 10:28:46 GMT -5
Ripley, just a small point of contention: we weren't shown that Daryl was given a mandate regarding survivors at the prison. He was part of the leadership council, so, if there was a decision in that regard, he was part of the decision-making process. He was also very clearly shown in 4x01 to be the one deciding on and organizing a run -- or at least, that was how I took it. Carol made it clear that internal defence had to trump his run from a staffing standpoint, but he still ensured the run he planned happened. So, in that sense, I could see his *jointly* deciding about goals as they relate to his role (which is not something that happens with Rick, which is part of the problem, and does actually put him in a position of joint control overall) and then leading within that role. To me, that's still leadership -- just a different version, and probably a stronger one, than we see with the show's current autocracies. I wouldn't want Carol to be in a Rick/Ezekiel/Negan/Gregory/Governor type position; we see the problems repeatedly with that leadership approach, both IRL and on the show. The most functional version of the prison we saw was the one that had a leadership council, and Carol and Daryl seemed to have distinct roles within that leadership. I would really like, frankly, to see that recreated, both for the two of them as individual characters and for the sake of seeing something other the the autocracy model on the show.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 7, 2017 10:37:09 GMT -5
MorganBGone, we all see what we see and can be right or wrong. As always, you raise a good point. I saw s 4 as " Go get people of you think they are ok ask the questions." and then Daryl executed that as he and others saw fit. Mention was made that Glenn was involved and of course we saw him find Bob with Daryl. I think Daryl has to be in agreement with his mission or mandate (which I felt was implied even though we never saw it on screen) or else he wouldn't do it frankly. He'd refuse and give his reasons why IMO. Or refuse, as he did with Richard, and use his fists if necessary to make his point, lol. Governments and councils have to have those tasked with executing bug picture plans IMO in order to work well others on the council like Hershel (medical) and Sasha for instance, may or may not have had specific goals or duties also not seen on screen. I think Daryl would do well wherever he went because his skills are useful and add a lot to any community. That said, Carola also has good qualities in an advisor although I also see her as being happier being a number two rather than a leader.
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Post by MorganBGone on Mar 7, 2017 10:42:37 GMT -5
Ripley, take a group of people who have individual strengths and can lead within different roles, and you have the makings of a good government. Take Rick or any of the others listed, and you see why the former is a good idea. I think Daryl, as someone who wouldn't want to be sole leader, and Carol, who would also likely not want to be sole leader, as well as others, could jointly put their strengths together to have separate but equal roles within an overall power structure based in joint decision-making regarding core goals and values.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 7, 2017 10:49:52 GMT -5
Sure they might, MorganBGone , but the question, "is Daryl a leader", in the way Rick or The Governor or Negan are leaders, he just doesn't strike me as one like Rick for instance. There are all sorts of leaders however, as the show has crammed down our throats all year- Gregory, Natalia, Negan, Ezekiel, Rick and Jadis, so there is a lot of room on the leader spectrum IMO. Each leader has strengths and weaknesses as we have seen all year. For me, Daryl is just not the same type of leader as Rick and the others- my opinion.
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Mar 7, 2017 10:59:52 GMT -5
I see him as a maybe, depends a lot on his new evolution, if he leave aside anger and impulsivity and start thinking with the head he can get to lead, when Rick lost his mind after Lori's death, Daryl acted quite according to a leader
And now that he is no longer Rick right hand man, in what position does that leave him
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Post by MorganBGone on Mar 7, 2017 14:19:15 GMT -5
I guess part of the problem with defining leader as people like Rick for me, Ripley, is that I don't really think much of any of these leaders. I don't necessarily see them as leaders so much as alphas being toadied to and making mistakes they perhaps wouldn't if they consistently kept more than their own counsel. If the question is "is Daryl a leader in the way Rick is a leader" then I happily say "no, and I hope nobody else is, either".
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Post by Ripley on Mar 7, 2017 15:04:34 GMT -5
That's fine, of course MorganBGone that you see things you do with Daryl v Rick or other characters. my preference is for Michonne to lead the ASZ because I think she's the smartest leader, but I doubt it is happening any time soon. That said, my perception remains that Daryl makes an awesome #2 for any group lucky enough to have him.
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Post by dandelioncherokee on Mar 7, 2017 15:14:07 GMT -5
I see him as a maybe, depends a lot on his new evolution, if he leave aside anger and impulsivity and start thinking with the head he can get to lead, when Rick lost his mind after Lori's death, Daryl acted quite according to a leader And now that he is no longer Rick right hand man, in what position does that leave him I agree. I know most people see Daryl as a pure beta type. But if you take a look at his character,I have to say I see a natural born alpha. His upbringing and the massive physical and mental abuse that was never tended to tainted this ability tremendously. And,in the first place,it took away his desire to ever be a leader at all.He has literally been conditioned to fall in line,back up and make himself little as a pure defensive mechanism.To stay alive.He may act out this defense since he was a very little kid. But at heart he has everything he needs to lead.He is absolutely loyal.Passionate. He is resilient,persistent,tough as nails,smart,straight on,has high morals,is very observant,empathetic,knows the difference between good and bad people.He has still a good heart although he had the hardest life of them all.I could go on.I can't say how many times I wanted Daryl to take over for Rick.Countless times. Daryl would be 100% able to lead if he were able to deal with the issues that are results of his abusive past. If Carol would be there to ground him,support him,he could do it.
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
Posts: 1,749
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Post by Meggo358 on Mar 7, 2017 15:28:54 GMT -5
I see him as a maybe, depends a lot on his new evolution, if he leave aside anger and impulsivity and start thinking with the head he can get to lead, when Rick lost his mind after Lori's death, Daryl acted quite according to a leader And now that he is no longer Rick right hand man, in what position does that leave him I think the "post Lori" situation is the one which most clearly stands out as being "Daryl taking charge" for the group. It was a great episode for him and I think one which showed considerable growth. I still see him being a second or third in command in terms of any given community, but I could see him being "mission critical", so to speak. One that can put plans into action and get things done. i think Daryls lack of impulse control, his tendency to fall apart emotionally and his lack of confidence (not to say he doesn't have any at all, but this is totally a guy who would second guess himself) are things that would make it hard for me to see him as THE leader of a group or community, however. Plus, the mumbling....can't make all those speeches if you mumble : )
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Mar 7, 2017 15:29:14 GMT -5
Daryl is what I call a reluctant leader. He could lead if he had to but he wouldn't want to. And by had to I mean every other competent potential leader would have to be incapacitated or dead. And by could lead I mean keep everyone alive, which is hella important, but he would be less than successful at other leadership duties such as keeping the community healthy, happy, and running like a well oiled machine.
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Post by scarletbegonias on Mar 7, 2017 20:09:44 GMT -5
I think Daryl has some leadership qualities and I can see him stepping in if needed, but not as an ongoing leader. To me, Daryl is the General you want on the battlefield, he's shrewd, tough and he has heart-soldiers would follow him into battle- but he's not the guy you would send to a diplomatic session. I think he has qualities that make him a good advisor to a more temperate and more well spoken/charming leader.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 16, 2017 16:16:17 GMT -5
TWD Magazine came today-Daryl listed as a Beta or non-leader, along with Abraham and Dwight.
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Post by AlienSoul on Mar 16, 2017 18:56:34 GMT -5
Ripley . Interesting! Which other characters are listed in the magazine (in other categories)? Or is that it?
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Mar 16, 2017 18:59:50 GMT -5
TWD Magazine came today-Daryl listed as a Beta or non-leader, along with Abraham and Dwight. He isn't an absolute beta. Depends on his evolution, he need to correct some things, if he correct them he can lead
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Post by AlienSoul on Mar 16, 2017 19:02:45 GMT -5
atlanta , It did say that Daryl could be described as an alpha and that he has highly developed leadership skills, but that he simply values his independence too much. Doesn't mean he can't ever be a leader if he has to be and, as you say, with a little more character progression.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 16, 2017 20:02:51 GMT -5
The story is called Alphas and Betas. Give me a few minutes to cap it and I'll post. Just remembered this topic and thought it was an interesting comparison.
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Post by Mia on Mar 16, 2017 20:55:28 GMT -5
Sadly I think he will always be a follower.
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Post by gia on Mar 16, 2017 20:59:29 GMT -5
Daryl is definitely a follower. He followed Merle, he followed Rick, he followed Joe, he went back to following Rick.
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Post by greaterpursuit on Mar 16, 2017 21:06:25 GMT -5
Sadly I think he will always be a follower. I agree but I wouldn't say sadly. There are leaders and followers and both play vital roles in any undertaking.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 16, 2017 22:08:47 GMT -5
Update, it is a long article with a few small sidebars such as the one I posted here. I need time with a scanner to be able to post the whole article, so look for it tomorrow night.
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Post by dandelioncherokee on Mar 17, 2017 3:09:07 GMT -5
atlanta , It did say that Daryl could be described as an alpha and that he has highly developed leadership skills, but that he simply values his independence too much. Doesn't mean he can't ever be a leader if he has to be and, as you say, with a little more character progression. AlienSoulAgree. I said it before in this topic. Daryl has all the right features basically. The one thing he hasn't is the will/ confidence to lead. And I think this is because of his self-esteem and guilt issues that were planted into him because of his massively abusive childhood.And he still has such a good heart and keeps his sanity when Rick often showed he couldn't. I have to wonder what kind of man Daryl would have been if he had been raised in a loving,intact family. I tend to think he would be the purest,best alpha to ever walk this earth.
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on Mar 17, 2017 5:50:47 GMT -5
Sadly I think he will always be a follower. I agree but I wouldn't say sadly. There are leaders and followers and both play vital roles in any undertaking. Last time i like more Daryl follower than Rick leader
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on Mar 17, 2017 5:54:04 GMT -5
thank you Ripley ! its funny that in aricle about leadership put Daryl's pic with Carol
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