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Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Jul 7, 2017 21:09:59 GMT -5
If some character had to ask forgiveness to another who would be? To who? why?
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Post by honkytonkwoman on Jul 7, 2017 21:28:28 GMT -5
Rick to Carol
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
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Post by Meggo358 on Jul 7, 2017 21:49:46 GMT -5
I can't really think of anyone who owes anyone else an apology when I consider the current cast as is. Things I think warrented an apology in the past:
i always thought Carol should have apologized to Sasha for what her brother went through as a result of her killing Karen. It was a complex situation and I don't think Carol needed to be raked over the coals for anything, but I always assumed Sasha would be protective of her brother, and would have needed to address all that happened
Daryl should have apologized to Carol for blaming her for the death of her daughter and almost hitting her. He should also have apologized to Beth for treating her so horribly right after her dad died
This may be controversial but I always struggled with how rick treated Lori at the end. I understand it, but it's like his hostility grew after the fact, merely because she didn't react well to him killing Shane. I wouldn't have minded some kind of apology.
And this isn't character based but I think Steven Yeun deserves an apology from tptb.
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Post by merelei on Jul 8, 2017 5:11:25 GMT -5
Obligatory Negan mention >:<
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on Jul 9, 2017 6:48:24 GMT -5
i completely agree Meggo358 but would also add. Rick should apologize to Carol for not believing in her intentions to save people. (Although he apologized, in fact, i think he did it to remove the burden of guilt from himself, rather than take it off from Carol) The second - i always believed that Abraham did right when he broke up with Rosita, he didn't want to deceive her and betray her. But the way it did? I understand that he's a typical military man from the barracks, but he could be more soft with the woman who supported him so much and followed him. Third, not the worst, but still - think Rosita should apologize to Father G for offensive words that she told him with anger.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on Jul 9, 2017 18:36:52 GMT -5
i completely agree Meggo358 but would also add. Rick should apologize to Carol for not believing in her intentions to save people. (Although he apologized, in fact, i think he did it to remove the burden of guilt from himself, rather than take it off from Carol) The second - i always believed that Abraham did right when he broke up with Rosita, he didn't want to deceive her and betray her. But the way it did? I understand that he's a typical military man from the barracks, but he could be more soft with the woman who supported him so much and followed him. Third, not the worst, but still - think Rosita should apologize to Father G for offensive words that she told him with anger. I always hated the way Abe treated Rosita. I actually hated the entire love triangle situation. I do agree that an apology would have been in order (I'm married to a former military guy so IMO that excuses nothing) - but I also agree with you that the break up itself was the right thing. I do think Rosita has a lot of be angry about, but I agree that she takes it out on too many people around her - I'm hoping that trait of hers will shift this season. As for Rick and Carol, I actually dont remember the words "I'm sorry" coming from him, but I feel like we've seen in multiple ways over multiple seasons that he regrets his actions, which has been expressed both to her and to others. From where I'm sitting I am not sure what else needs to be done here by him...this is a show that glosses over what happens within the group constantly, and no one seems to hold a grudge for any reason (see: maggie) - do you feel that something more direct in terms of an apology is what is needed?
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Post by murph on Jul 9, 2017 19:01:36 GMT -5
i completely agree Meggo358 but would also add. Rick should apologize to Carol for not believing in her intentions to save people. (Although he apologized, in fact, i think he did it to remove the burden of guilt from himself, rather than take it off from Carol) The second - i always believed that Abraham did right when he broke up with Rosita, he didn't want to deceive her and betray her. But the way it did? I understand that he's a typical military man from the barracks, but he could be more soft with the woman who supported him so much and followed him. Third, not the worst, but still - think Rosita should apologize to Father G for offensive words that she told him with anger. I always hated the way Abe treated Rosita. I actually hated the entire love triangle situation. I do agree that an apology would have been in order (I'm married to a former military guy so IMO that excuses nothing) - but I also agree with you that the break up itself was the right thing. I do think Rosita has a lot of be angry about, but I agree that she takes it out on too many people around her - I'm hoping that trait of hers will shift this season. As for Rick and Carol, I actually dont remember the words "I'm sorry" coming from him, but I feel like we've seen in multiple ways over multiple seasons that he regrets his actions, which has been expressed both to her and to others. From where I'm sitting I am not sure what else needs to be done here by him...this is a show that glosses over what happens within the group constantly, and no one seems to hold a grudge for any reason (see: maggie) - do you feel that something more direct in terms of an apology is what is needed? I agree with you. I think Rick handled it in Strangers (their conversation is in Strangers, right?) as well as was possible. I think he did right by her there, and mostly since. He reached out, acknowledged that what he did wasn't okay and was honest about the fact that he still didn't feel totally okay with what she did, but understood there was things he didn't know, and then asked her if they could join her, showing he trusts her to help lead them. She clearly didn't want to talk more about it and I think he reached out as much as he actually could, without pushing for something she clearly didn't want pushed. And since he has shown again and again that he trusts her, that his previous, hurtful words to her aren't actually true, and that he values her opinion and trusts her with the lives of his kids, and the team. I don't think he needs to apologise more, but I hope he brings it up again because I think it's obviously still an issue for Carol. I don't think she has an issue with him for it - I don't think she's mad at him or anything - just that it still hurts her, maybe, considering how she feels about herself.. So I don't think it's a should situation, or that he owes it, but I think simply Carol may need it - it would be helpful for her, and so as her friend, I'd like Rick to address something with it all again, especially now she's maybe in a better mindset to hear it. Also, I think Carol leaving was a self-consumed decision she made for herself because she was scared of herself and losing what she feels is right about herself, and I think Rick's banishment of Carol was the same thing. Edited to add: The other thing is about the Carol and Rick apologies is that they're Gimple parallel examples that I really like, mostly because they're not stand alone without the actual relationship to back it up (one reason for that is because of those is from season 3, so not Gimple) Carol never apologises to Rick for her blaming him for Sophia or for how much she criticises him in Season 2, but she does admit her fault with it, and to her opinion of Rick in general and in, to me, some of the most perfect ways. She outright says to Daryl that Rick's got them this far, and that Shane could never have done that. She was like, the only one who was kind of more Team Shane than Team Rick and Rick obviously took the action he did so often because it was about in comparison to Shane and what Shane would have done. So for her to say that is huge. And I don't think Rick really needs or wants a direct apology for any of that. Their relationship progression itself was enough, I think. They're there for each other. And then with Andrea she sticks up for Rick, and again, in the best possible way. She says he's been through a lot or that he has his reasons or whatever it is, when Andrea questions his actions; she shows her support and understanding of him to someone challenging him, but does it in a way that doesn't betray his confidence or gossip about what he's been through, and it's all to another friend she obviously cares about (Andrea). To me, is the one of the best examples of a show of loyalty and friendship in the show. And then Rick's comments to Morgan about Carol being a force of nature and that now, he would have backed her actions or even done it himself. Both situations are someone questioning the behaviour of Carol/Rick and them standing up for the other's abilities, showing belief and understanding of them. When both of them have questioned those actions themselves and both admitted they were wrong about it, I really kind of love that. Made even more parallely when Rick and Morgan's looking for Carol scenes are paralleled with Rick and Shane and them heading for their fight, and then with Rick and Daryl looking for Sophia, as they look for Carol, so covering all three points of contention between Rick and Carol. So though I do still want that conversation, because I think it's important for Carol to actually hear it, I do like the storytelling of it so far and I don't think it's owed from Rick. Again though, most specifically because I think those times were also backed with Carol and Rick relationship period, or had been in the run up to it. And I think in terms of characters and forgiveness: I think Carol needs to forgive herself. And Eugene is prolly going to owe at least some explanation. Dwight of Tara and Daryl, especially. That's the most obvious one for me. I think Rick may actually owe Daryl something regarding Carol's banishment, because I think he was quite calculated about doing it without Daryl's knowledge and in so was quite disrespectful of their relationship and there hasn't really been anything since that has shown a fix of that. I think the show missed a very obvious chance for it, actually. We should have seen Rick telling Daryl that Carol had left last season, that he had tried to find her. It would have been a parallel and it would have shown Rick respecting and acknowledging their relationship in the way he'd failed to in Season 4.
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
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Post by Meggo358 on Jul 10, 2017 8:42:14 GMT -5
I always hated the way Abe treated Rosita. I actually hated the entire love triangle situation. I do agree that an apology would have been in order (I'm married to a former military guy so IMO that excuses nothing) - but I also agree with you that the break up itself was the right thing. I do think Rosita has a lot of be angry about, but I agree that she takes it out on too many people around her - I'm hoping that trait of hers will shift this season. As for Rick and Carol, I actually dont remember the words "I'm sorry" coming from him, but I feel like we've seen in multiple ways over multiple seasons that he regrets his actions, which has been expressed both to her and to others. From where I'm sitting I am not sure what else needs to be done here by him...this is a show that glosses over what happens within the group constantly, and no one seems to hold a grudge for any reason (see: maggie) - do you feel that something more direct in terms of an apology is what is needed? I agree with you. I think Rick handled it in Strangers (their conversation is in Strangers, right?) as well as was possible. I think he did right by her there, and mostly since. He reached out, acknowledged that what he did wasn't okay and was honest about the fact that he still didn't feel totally okay with what she did, but understood there was things he didn't know, and then asked her if they could join her, showing he trusts her to help lead them. She clearly didn't want to talk more about it and I think he reached out as much as he actually could, without pushing for something she clearly didn't want pushed. And since he has shown again and again that he trusts her, that his previous, hurtful words to her aren't actually true, and that he values her opinion and trusts her with the lives of his kids, and the team. I don't think he needs to apologise more, but I hope he brings it up again because I think it's obviously still an issue for Carol. I don't think she has an issue with him for it - I don't think she's mad at him or anything - just that it still hurts her, maybe, considering how she feels about herself.. So I don't think it's a should situation, or that he owes it, but I think simply Carol may need it - it would be helpful for her, and so as her friend, I'd like Rick to address something with it all again, especially now she's maybe in a better mindset to hear it. Also, I think Carol leaving was a self-consumed decision she made for herself because she was scared of herself and losing what she feels is right about herself, and I think Rick's banishment of Carol was the same thing. Edited to add: The other thing is about the Carol and Rick apologies is that they're Gimple parallel examples that I really like, mostly because they're not stand alone without the actual relationship to back it up (one reason for that is because of those is from season 3, so not Gimple) Carol never apologises to Rick for her blaming him for Sophia or for how much she criticises him in Season 2, but she does admit her fault with it, and to her opinion of Rick in general and in, to me, some of the most perfect ways. She outright says to Daryl that Rick's got them this far, and that Shane could never have done that. She was like, the only one who was kind of more Team Shane than Team Rick and Rick obviously took the action he did so often because it was about in comparison to Shane and what Shane would have done. So for her to say that is huge. And I don't think Rick really needs or wants a direct apology for any of that. Their relationship progression itself was enough, I think. They're there for each other. And then with Andrea she sticks up for Rick, and again, in the best possible way. She says he's been through a lot or that he has his reasons or whatever it is, when Andrea questions his actions; she shows her support and understanding of him to someone challenging him, but does it in a way that doesn't betray his confidence or gossip about what he's been through, and it's all to another friend she obviously cares about (Andrea). To me, is the one of the best examples of a show of loyalty and friendship in the show. And then Rick's comments to Morgan about Carol being a force of nature and that now, he would have backed her actions or even done it himself. Both situations are someone questioning the behaviour of Carol/Rick and them standing up for the other's abilities, showing belief and understanding of them. When both of them have questioned those actions themselves and both admitted they were wrong about it, I really kind of love that. Made even more parallely when Rick and Morgan's looking for Carol scenes are paralleled with Rick and Shane and them heading for their fight, and then with Rick and Daryl looking for Sophia, as they look for Carol, so covering all three points of contention between Rick and Carol. So though I do still want that conversation, because I think it's important for Carol to actually hear it, I do like the storytelling of it so far and I don't think it's owed from Rick. Again though, most specifically because I think those times were also backed with Carol and Rick relationship period, or had been in the run up to it. And I think in terms of characters and forgiveness: I think Carol needs to forgive herself. And Eugene is prolly going to owe at least some explanation. Dwight of Tara and Daryl, especially. That's the most obvious one for me. I think Rick may actually owe Daryl something regarding Carol's banishment, because I think he was quite calculated about doing it without Daryl's knowledge and in so was quite disrespectful of their relationship and there hasn't really been anything since that has shown a fix of that. I think the show missed a very obvious chance for it, actually. We should have seen Rick telling Daryl that Carol had left last season, that he had tried to find her. It would have been a parallel and it would have shown Rick respecting and acknowledging their relationship in the way he'd failed to in Season 4. I love this post, Murph! I would agree that Carol would benefit from discussing what happened with the banishment more - it really does make sense that this is sticking point for her, and so in a way in glad it was brought up again. That said, it was brought up somewhat in passing...part of her explanation for leaving, so I don't know if we're supposed to think that it's still a big deal. I honestly think this show likes to keep things pretty shallow, and what happened with carols story in season 4 was so complex and layered that it's like the show doesn't really have the skills to deal with it, so I think we won't be revisiting anything that happened there. Again, I would love to see more discussion about this because Carol could benefit from it, but not because rick owes it, for the reasons you mentioned. I never really got the whole "Carol was ricks biggest critic" things from season two...she did question him a couple of times but it's like she was one of the only characters who was paying attention - it didn't feel extreme. I loved rick then like I do now but carols issues with him seemed reasonable and way more of a big deal in the fandom than on the show. But you're right it's interesting how they made sure to demonstrate carols suppprt of him the following season. I agree Carol needs to forgive herself...if only the writers will let her. Eugene will absolutely need to be apologizing soon. Dwight....I don't think an apology will cut it. As for rick to Daryl, I agree rick seemed a bit calculating, but Daryl never stopped being completely supportive of rick after the initial scene when he got the news of the banishment. There was definitely no issue between the two so I'm not sure if an apology is needed there.
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Post by murph on Jul 10, 2017 11:57:44 GMT -5
I agree with you. I think Rick handled it in Strangers (their conversation is in Strangers, right?) as well as was possible. I think he did right by her there, and mostly since. He reached out, acknowledged that what he did wasn't okay and was honest about the fact that he still didn't feel totally okay with what she did, but understood there was things he didn't know, and then asked her if they could join her, showing he trusts her to help lead them. She clearly didn't want to talk more about it and I think he reached out as much as he actually could, without pushing for something she clearly didn't want pushed. And since he has shown again and again that he trusts her, that his previous, hurtful words to her aren't actually true, and that he values her opinion and trusts her with the lives of his kids, and the team. I don't think he needs to apologise more, but I hope he brings it up again because I think it's obviously still an issue for Carol. I don't think she has an issue with him for it - I don't think she's mad at him or anything - just that it still hurts her, maybe, considering how she feels about herself.. So I don't think it's a should situation, or that he owes it, but I think simply Carol may need it - it would be helpful for her, and so as her friend, I'd like Rick to address something with it all again, especially now she's maybe in a better mindset to hear it. Also, I think Carol leaving was a self-consumed decision she made for herself because she was scared of herself and losing what she feels is right about herself, and I think Rick's banishment of Carol was the same thing. Edited to add: The other thing is about the Carol and Rick apologies is that they're Gimple parallel examples that I really like, mostly because they're not stand alone without the actual relationship to back it up (one reason for that is because of those is from season 3, so not Gimple) Carol never apologises to Rick for her blaming him for Sophia or for how much she criticises him in Season 2, but she does admit her fault with it, and to her opinion of Rick in general and in, to me, some of the most perfect ways. She outright says to Daryl that Rick's got them this far, and that Shane could never have done that. She was like, the only one who was kind of more Team Shane than Team Rick and Rick obviously took the action he did so often because it was about in comparison to Shane and what Shane would have done. So for her to say that is huge. And I don't think Rick really needs or wants a direct apology for any of that. Their relationship progression itself was enough, I think. They're there for each other. And then with Andrea she sticks up for Rick, and again, in the best possible way. She says he's been through a lot or that he has his reasons or whatever it is, when Andrea questions his actions; she shows her support and understanding of him to someone challenging him, but does it in a way that doesn't betray his confidence or gossip about what he's been through, and it's all to another friend she obviously cares about (Andrea). To me, is the one of the best examples of a show of loyalty and friendship in the show. And then Rick's comments to Morgan about Carol being a force of nature and that now, he would have backed her actions or even done it himself. Both situations are someone questioning the behaviour of Carol/Rick and them standing up for the other's abilities, showing belief and understanding of them. When both of them have questioned those actions themselves and both admitted they were wrong about it, I really kind of love that. Made even more parallely when Rick and Morgan's looking for Carol scenes are paralleled with Rick and Shane and them heading for their fight, and then with Rick and Daryl looking for Sophia, as they look for Carol, so covering all three points of contention between Rick and Carol. So though I do still want that conversation, because I think it's important for Carol to actually hear it, I do like the storytelling of it so far and I don't think it's owed from Rick. Again though, most specifically because I think those times were also backed with Carol and Rick relationship period, or had been in the run up to it. And I think in terms of characters and forgiveness: I think Carol needs to forgive herself. And Eugene is prolly going to owe at least some explanation. Dwight of Tara and Daryl, especially. That's the most obvious one for me. I think Rick may actually owe Daryl something regarding Carol's banishment, because I think he was quite calculated about doing it without Daryl's knowledge and in so was quite disrespectful of their relationship and there hasn't really been anything since that has shown a fix of that. I think the show missed a very obvious chance for it, actually. We should have seen Rick telling Daryl that Carol had left last season, that he had tried to find her. It would have been a parallel and it would have shown Rick respecting and acknowledging their relationship in the way he'd failed to in Season 4. I love this post, Murph! I would agree that Carol would benefit from discussing what happened with the banishment more - it really does make sense that this is sticking point for her, and so in a way in glad it was brought up again. That said, it was brought up somewhat in passing...part of her explanation for leaving, so I don't know if we're supposed to think that it's still a big deal. I honestly think this show likes to keep things pretty shallow, and what happened with carols story in season 4 was so complex and layered that it's like the show doesn't really have the skills to deal with it, so I think we won't be revisiting anything that happened there. Again, I would love to see more discussion about this because Carol could benefit from it, but not because rick owes it, for the reasons you mentioned. I never really got the whole "Carol was ricks biggest critic" things from season two...she did question him a couple of times but it's like she was one of the only characters who was paying attention - it didn't feel extreme. I loved rick then like I do now but carols issues with him seemed reasonable and way more of a big deal in the fandom than on the show. But you're right it's interesting how they made sure to demonstrate carols suppprt of him the following season. I agree Carol needs to forgive herself...if only the writers will let her. Eugene will absolutely need to be apologizing soon. Dwight....I don't think an apology will cut it. As for rick to Daryl, I agree rick seemed a bit calculating, but Daryl never stopped being completely supportive of rick after the initial scene when he got the news of the banishment. There was definitely no issue between the two so I'm not sure if an apology is needed there. I don't think she was extreme in her critcisim either, and her blaming him for Sophia was pretty understandable - even Rick clearly got that cuz he certainly never held it against her. I think she's just the biggest critic simply because she's the only one who is even a little. She does essentially vocalise she doesn't trust him and doesn't think the others should. By comparison to everyone else, she is therefore the biggest critic, if it is not necessarily overly critical by itself, if you get what I mean. And again, it's not a big, lasting thing. He doesn't hold it against her, she doesn't let it stunt their relationship past those moments. In terms of their history, I actually love it. I agree you're prolly right about not expecting the banishment to come up again, but then I also wonder on Gimple - if he will. He enjoys writing Carol, he enjoys writing the progression and exploration of Carol, so in a way I don't ever really think anything is totally impossible. I also agree there's no issue with Rick and Daryl on that, I just think it would be something right of Rick, to show that actually, he has respect for that relationship. Because I think him acknowledging that it was best to do it with Daryl away meant he knew how much that relationship meant, and I think it would just be nice if there was a follow up to it to show he is aware of it, that he gives it effort. Same as Carol and Rick, it's not necessarily an owed thing. I don't think Daryl needs it. Just...they're friends, and it's something important to one of them, so a show of respect and just general understanding of the other, I think could work. Again, I think just Rick telling Daryl that Carol had left, showing he was sad about it, taking that moment to tell Daryl and show he knew it would matter to him and show he'd tried to look for her, would have been perfect. I agree Dwight apologising won't cut it too, but I still would say he's the most obvious non-Negan character who needs to ask for forgiveness. Whether it's given or not is really a different thing; it's something he needs to do, I think. In general, I think apologies are very limited, anyway, by themselves, at least. If they aren't backed by action, they mean jack shit. I think that's even truer in their world where what's trivial has a very different definition. What does 'I'm sorry' mean when someone is fighting with and for you, willing to die for you, and trusts their life in your hands, you know? Or, what does it mean when they're not doing any of those things, by everybody else is. I think some things still need to be talked through, like Carol and Rick's first talk after their reunion, like Daryl and Maggie, and like Eugene will need to talk about, but for the most part, I think because of their lives, these characters will either show their respect and love for each other, or they won't. And I just don't think 'I'm sorry' comes into that too often. It's sort of an allowance for some of the dismissal of some of the follow up. Not all, but some. When you do something like nearly die for someone, does it matter what you were arguing about the day before, you know? It overrides those types of things more often than not, I think.
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Post by murph on Jul 10, 2017 13:33:11 GMT -5
Meggo358, this may be a little too Caryl and pro-Daryl for your tastes, lol, sorry, but the other thing I would say about the Rick and Daryl over Carol banishment is that I don't think Daryl not reacting to it past the initial reaction is a good thing. In that, I don't think it's particularly healthy for Daryl or for Rick and Daryl. The 'You're my brother' scene is not one I like. I find it incredibly sad. For me, Daryl is just kind of broken, he has given up. He has accepted that Beth, and Carol are just gone now, and that's it. And he sits quiet and kind of laps up any kind of praise and comfort and familiarity he can in finding Rick and Michonne and Carl, because I think he is so terrified of being alone at that point, of losing all the goodness he had believed he'd gained, and the acceptance and love and belief that came with it. He's wanted and useful in that moment and I think he latches onto it. And for me, not challenging Rick about something that so obviously mattered so much to him before, it's like he can't fight for himself anymore, because he doesn't have the confidence to anymore. And him kind of trailing behind Rick and Michonne with Carl and just being quiet... that's not Daryl at his best, you know? And on that, I really appreciate Rick later asking him what he thinks about Terminus and what to do when they get out, because he's valuing his opinion again and I think that's a confidence booster for Daryl. Like I said already, I don't think an apology or anything is something Daryl needs now. Or that it's owed, exactly. I don't think he has an issue with it. I think now it's something he accepts happened and is better now, so that's what matters. And I think he takes Carol's lead on it (as we see he's happy to do with Ezekiel; Carol's opinion on Ezekiel is enough for Daryl's to make his opinion on him) - and Rick's. He hovers quite a bit when Rick approaches Carol in No Sanctuary, like he is ready, for whatever their reunion is going to be, but ultimately it's fine and it's Carol and Rick's business and he leaves it at that. That's how I see it. And I don't think Rick or Carol show issue with each other so I don't think Daryl holds one either. I'm not someone who wants Rick and Daryl to argue and for Daryl to like, rebel or anything and break free. If nothing else, I'd find it overly dramatic and kind of out of nowhere ( maybe if Daryl takes issue with keeping Negan alive, maybe, because I kind of see him being the hardest one to convince ) but I would like Daryl to make a choice for himself. And for me, an obvious one would be to go to the Kingdom with Carol, and I'd really like to see Rick not only accept that, but actually encourage it, encourage Daryl to do something totally for himself, and it being something that Rick understands and respects. That's another example of Rick making that effort for their relationship - all of their relationships, really - that I'd like to see and could see as a perfect closure of that part of Season 4.
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Post by booksrbetter on Jul 10, 2017 20:48:48 GMT -5
I don't think Carol needs to apologize to Rick about Sophia. He shouldn't have gone alone, he should have had a silent weapon because he didn't want to attract the herd, and he shouldn't have told a terrified child to hide. She didn't need to apologize to Rick because he screwed up. She lost her only child. Yet, he never seems to take any responsibility for not knowing what to do. He knew she had been chased into the woods by walkers but he went in without thought that he had no way to defend her. He could have taken Daryl, Glenn, Shane, or even Andrea who had just killed a walker with a screwdriver. One of the things that I love about Carol is that you sees Rick as a fallible human being. She's been around for all of Rick's many bad decisions (Even Andrea Lincoln has said that Rick makes terrible decisions) but still sees him as their leader. I don't think apologies are always in order but what I would like to see more of would be characters actually talking to each other about their mistakes and things that they regret. Carol and Daryl aren't the only ones who need to talk. It's always given lip service. Maggie forgives Daryl which is in character but I would love for that scene to have been more emotional. They both lost Glenn. The group is all spread apart and they're in danger and this scene should have made us all cry. That Maggie has the capacity to forgive Daryl and that for once he recognizes that he must not be led by his emotions. That he should honor Glenn by becoming more like him.
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Post by Ripley on Jul 11, 2017 8:17:36 GMT -5
In a strange way, I would still like to see Morgan ask forgiveness - for trying to impose his views upon the ASZ group, for the deaths of innocents he caused in JSS and other episodes due to his deciding the lives of The Wolves and Alpha Wolf too, mattered more than the innocent lives lost. Why were the Wolves' lives more important than the lives of those ASZ innocents and those earlier victims Morgan saw on his way up north? His arbitrarily making that decision to hide Alpha Wolf, who made it clear he would murder them all, even Morgan, he put Denise and everyone in jeopardy until Carol ook out Alpha herself. IN that sense- the arbitrary making of a decision he knew the group would not approve, agree with or like, Morgan did what Carol did in Season 4 with Kavid. She was banished for her choice but he was covered for by Carol and the others. Morgan built the jail cell we know from the comic Negan will be filling, most likely, but the community neither asked for it or had need of it. Morgan was sleeping in the designated jail area until Rick invited him to move in, so there was already something existing although the security was probably lax. But my imposing his will and desire to Eastman someone else- Alpha Wolf- his selfish choice cost lives and created trauma for Carol and others. I understand Morgan and Carol have made up their differences, but I still find that an odd, incongruent note from season 6. I will never get that request for forgiveness, I know: but I still want it.
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Post by greaterpursuit on Jul 11, 2017 17:50:44 GMT -5
In a strange way, I would still like to see Morgan ask forgiveness - for trying to impose his views upon the ASZ group, for the deaths of innocents he caused in JSS and other episodes due to his deciding the lives of The Wolves and Alpha Wolf too, mattered more than the innocent lives lost. Why were the Wolves' lives more important than the lives of those ASZ innocents and those earlier victims Morgan saw on his way up north? My arbitrarily making that decision to hide Alpha Wolf, who made it clear he would murder them all, even Morgan, he put Denise and everyone in jeopardy until Caryl took out Alpha herself. IN that sense- the arbitrary making of a decision he knew the group would not approve, agree with or like, Morgan did what Carol did in Season 4 with Kavid. She was banished for her choice but he was covered for by Carol and the others. Morgan built the jail cell we know from the comic Negan will be filling, most likely, but the community neither asked for it or had need of it. Morgan was sleeping in the designated jail area until Rick invited him to move in, so there was already something existing although the security was probably lax. But my imposing his will and desire to Eastman someone else- Alpha Wolf- his selfish choice cost lives and created trauma for Carol and others. I understand Morgan and Carol have made up their differences, but I still find that an odd, incongruent note from season 6. I will never get that request for forgiveness, I know: but I still want it.
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Post by dark sister on Jul 11, 2017 22:56:06 GMT -5
Gimple should apologize to all of us for his shitty showrunning. Nicotero should apologize for his shitty directing. Really, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Abe's dead so he can't apologize to Rosita. I don't feel Rick needs to apologize to Carol for all the reasons Meggo and Murph already explained. I suppose Rosita should apologize for sassing Tara. Although, Daryl and Carol could apologize to each other for not being more open with one another. #icandream
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on Jul 12, 2017 13:14:10 GMT -5
Gimple should apologize to all of us for his shitty showrunning. Nicotero should apologize for his shitty directing. hell yes!
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Post by murph on Jul 12, 2017 13:44:14 GMT -5
In a strange way, I would still like to see Morgan ask forgiveness - for trying to impose his views upon the ASZ group, for the deaths of innocents he caused in JSS and other episodes due to his deciding the lives of The Wolves and Alpha Wolf too, mattered more than the innocent lives lost. Why were the Wolves' lives more important than the lives of those ASZ innocents and those earlier victims Morgan saw on his way up north? His arbitrarily making that decision to hide Alpha Wolf, who made it clear he would murder them all, even Morgan, he put Denise and everyone in jeopardy until Carol ook out Alpha herself. IN that sense- the arbitrary making of a decision he knew the group would not approve, agree with or like, Morgan did what Carol did in Season 4 with Kavid. She was banished for her choice but he was covered for by Carol and the others. Morgan built the jail cell we know from the comic Negan will be filling, most likely, but the community neither asked for it or had need of it. Morgan was sleeping in the designated jail area until Rick invited him to move in, so there was already something existing although the security was probably lax. But my imposing his will and desire to Eastman someone else- Alpha Wolf- his selfish choice cost lives and created trauma for Carol and others. I understand Morgan and Carol have made up their differences, but I still find that an odd, incongruent note from season 6. I will never get that request for forgiveness, I know: but I still want it. I like this. I find Morgan incredibly socially inexperienced compared to the others, which is something ironic that I kind of like considering Morgan was the one to teach Rick in the first place. But Morgan is selfish in a way that the others aren't anymore, because it's been experienced out of them. Morgan has survived based on that selfishness; he's needed it to survive. He's been alone and it's something that only works when someone is alone and can take such risks. He's clung onto a very strict belief that realistically does not work when there is anybody else in his life that he an affect on, and it's incredibly fragile. We saw how quickly and easily he broke that entire belief system and basically betrayed it, because it does not work, it cannot. But Morgan is screwed because it is the only thing that has allowed him to keep his sanity up until now. I think he has tried - I think he does care about Carol, but I'm still unconvinced about how much of that is still wrapped up in himself, about proving this way can work, about proving he's not gone, about proving that he can still be productive and human, about trying to still relate to someone. I think he has acknowledged that his earlier actions were wrong in some sense, because he's taken steps to change it. I do think he learned that he couldn't make a decision like that for her again. It's definitely not been vocalised much and I definitely don't think it would be inappropriate for him to vocalise it, and to actually apologise. I value him not basically telling on Carol specifically when she'd asked him not to - I think that was progress. It wasn't what he had wanted, so he did choose something he disagreed with, for someone else. That may seem like a low bar, but it was a new thing for him. I guess what holds me back a little on this is that...if Morgan does encourage Negan being kept alive...then I'm very doubtful of how much Morgan will have learned, because I think that in itself is still mostly a selfish choice. It's not based off whether it's the best thing for the community, I think it would be based off what he himself needs to believe and push for. I think certain characters being more about preserving humanity and/or against killing is fine. Characters like Glenn and Tyreese - I get that and I think it's fine because it's a belief that is actually held, fully, but still accepts the contradicted reality. It's been come to with understanding of themselves, about what it really means, the consequences of it etc. There's strength in it. Whereas Morgan's is a very fragile thing that actually dismisses pretty much everything else going on. Tyreese and Glenn thought it was something that was right; for Morgan it's something he alone needs. I think Morgan is potentially the character that still has to learn the most and quite tragically, I'm doubtful he'll ever get the opportunity. And if that's part of the point, then he can't really ask for forgiveness much at all - not in terms of what his belief systems causes the others that is, because he needs to go all the way being lead still by what he alone needs, if that's where the plot is going (Negan alive and pushed by Morgan). He can be sorry, about so much in general, but unless he completely changes, I don't see how he could genuinely get to the place where he would completely acknowledge and apologise for it all, because I don't think he can/will ever get there. He can't ask for forgiveness for something he doesn't ever truly doesn't learn the fault of.
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Post by darkandstormy on Jul 16, 2017 19:15:14 GMT -5
Rick's group, and especially Tara, should be begging the Oceanside women (or what's left of them) for forgiveness. Taking all of their weapons and leaving women and children defenseless was not cool. Tara most definitely owes Cyndie an explanation of why she betrayed her trust.
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