Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 7:58:00 GMT -5
Because this topic keeps popping up across the board a few of us thought it would be good to have a dedicated thread to this discussion.
My opinion is that of all the comic characters, comic michonne is the most similar to tv carol, but it's hardly an across the board, point for point adaptation. I think as far as the story progresses and certain things come up which are tied to the comics are shown, it's worth asking if carol will be involved, but hardly a guarantee.
So what do you think? Is carol taking on comic michonnes story, and to what degree? Do you think she's become more like comic michonne since arriving at the kingdom? What are the pros/cons her of adapting certain elements of comic michonnes story? What are your expectations around how the show deals with this moving forward?
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Post by murph on May 23, 2017 8:18:49 GMT -5
Not anymore than she already has been. It's pretty apparent Comic Michonne's storylining has been used as a guide for Carol's storylining. I don't see how anybody can argue with that. The specific characters and relationship focus is the same. We could have predicted Carol being paired with Morgan, or going to the Kingdom and interacting with Ezekiel based purely on the fact of 'well those are Comic Michonne's specifics'. But it's pretty much only the logistics - the type of interaction is different, and has been in every time. The behaviour and mentality of Carol is not the same as Comic Michonne. Carol is definitely her own character, but Comic Michonne signposting is definitely present. It doesn't lessen Carol as her own unique character; the entire show is based on comic storylines.
Gimple may suddenly stop shadowing those plot points, but I don't know what that theory would be based on. It's what he's done with Carol since he took over so why would it suddenly change now? But on the same train of thought, Gimple has been consistent in what Carol does not share with Comic Michonne, and I don't see on what grounds people would believe that would suddenly change either. That's not to say either is impossible, but I don't see the evidence for it.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 8:33:39 GMT -5
I agree murph I think comic michonnes story serves as a loose roadmap for carols story but everything within it is up for adjustment. And I agree too I don't see the use of the comic story as a backdrop to change anytime soon. I think we'll continue to see carol adapt parts of comic michonnes story for the long haul.
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Post by murph on May 23, 2017 8:43:01 GMT -5
I agree murph I think comic michonnes story serves as a loose roadmap for carols story but everything within it is up for adjustment. And I agree too I don't see the use of the comic story as a backdrop to change anytime soon. I think we'll continue to see carol adapt parts of comic michonnes story for the long haul. As a Non-Caryler Caroler, how do you feel about that? It often seems like a lot of the concern about Carol following Comic Michonne's storylining is romantic relationship based, so as someone not really thinking that way, are you for or against?
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 8:54:05 GMT -5
I agree murph I think comic michonnes story serves as a loose roadmap for carols story but everything within it is up for adjustment. And I agree too I don't see the use of the comic story as a backdrop to change anytime soon. I think we'll continue to see carol adapt parts of comic michonnes story for the long haul. As a Non-Caryler Caroler, how do you feel about that? It often seems like a lot of the concern about Carol following Comic Michonne's storylining is romantic relationship based, so as someone not really thinking that way, are you for or against? I think it my only true concern is how swept to the side michonne is at certain times in the comics. As I understand it she disappears for a long time, and while my theory is that carols season 7 story was the tv version of that, I still have a small fear we could ultimately see less of her. And michonne is kind of a jerk at certain parts of the comic - I'd hate to see carol treat a guy the way michonne treats ezekiel, for example. I don't believe that will happen though as I think carols pretty much done pushing people alway. so I can't really say I'm for or against - comic michonne has a relationship with rick that I really like (and see similarities with tv carick) and she's obviously iconic, so those are pluses. I don't mind comic michonne being a loose roadmap for Carol, as we've already seen enough differences to see that she isn't taking michonnes story point for point, just as tv michonne isn't taking Andreas.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 23, 2017 9:11:16 GMT -5
I think since the killed Andrea off, things got shuffled around. It's not a straightforward exchange though. Some of Andrea'so story went to Sasha. TV Michonne has had bits of comic Michonne's story too. Also the part about comic Michonne's daughters was similar but not identical to the story of savior Paula's daughters. Not to mention the daughters were changed to one son.
I think there is absolutely an agenda on the part of some shippers to use this as evidence that Carol will have comic Michonne'a sexual relationships. So far none have happened.
The big question to me is is Michonne comic Andrea then? Because...
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Post by murph on May 23, 2017 9:16:18 GMT -5
As a Non-Caryler Caroler, how do you feel about that? It often seems like a lot of the concern about Carol following Comic Michonne's storylining is romantic relationship based, so as someone not really thinking that way, are you for or against? I think it my only true concern is how swept to the side michonne is at certain times in the comics. As I understand it she disappears for a long time, and while my theory is that carols season 7 story was the tv version of that, I still have a small fear we could ultimately see less of her. And michonne is kind of a jerk at certain parts of the comic - I'd hate to see carol treat a guy the way michonne treats ezekiel, for example. I don't believe that will happen though as I think carols pretty much done pushing people alway. so I can't really say I'm for or against - comic michonne has a relationship with rick that I really like (and see similarities with tv carick) and she's obviously iconic, so those are pluses. I don't mind comic michonne being a loose roadmap for Carol, as we've already seen enough differences to see that she isn't taking michonnes story point for point, just as tv michonne isn't taking Andreas. Yeah I think the personalities are very different. Even when Carol is closing off from people, she's still got that humour, and her motivation is to protect. She's not angry like Comic Michonne is; she's got too much warmth to go that route, I think. I'd definitely be up for more Comic Michonne and Rick, Carick style! I'm wondering how they will handle the Kingdom, if it will be a full location from here on out. I hope Carol doesn't have as little screen-time as she did last season. Characters can't really realistically disappear from TV the way they do in the comic, at least. I guess worst case, surely there has to be more screen-time than last season.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 9:30:54 GMT -5
I think since the killed Andrea off, things got shuffled around. It's not a straightforward exchange though. Some of Andrea'so story went to Sasha. TV Michonne has had bits of comic Michonne's story too. Also the part about comic Michonne's daughters was similar but not identical to the story of savior Paula's daughters. Not to mention the daughters were changed to one son. I think there is absolutely an agenda on the part of some shippers to use this as evidence that Carol will have comic Michonne'a sexual relationships. So far none have happened. The big question to me is is Michonne comic Andrea then? Because... Andrea being killed absolutely changed things, and honestly I've always wondered if it is also why Carol is still standing. If Andrea had lived I could have seen the story go in a really different direction. I agree to that at the end of the day the story has been shuffled around for not just carol but for all of the characters. What's happening to Carol isn't really unique to her. I think too it's worth acknowledging that what we want from the story motivates our perception - we pretty much all have agendas, so imo its nothing to worry about.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 9:34:06 GMT -5
I agree murph Carol isn't cruel/angry...sadness and guilt seem to be the things she struggles with the most. I am more concerned about the screentime/disconnect from the main story. And while yes it isn't good storytelling to dismiss characters for long durations, I don't know if mr. we're-going-to-be-on-air-for-20-more-seasons gets that
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Post by AlienSoul on May 23, 2017 9:35:23 GMT -5
I agree murph I think comic michonnes story serves as a loose roadmap for carols story but everything within it is up for adjustment. This is what I think, too. I think Carol will, more or less, get comic Michonne's major arcs, sometimes remixed and with adjustments as they see fit. ETA: I really don't think Carol will disappear like Michonne/the Kingdom did in the comics after the war. They will create a story for her and/or remix some stuff so she'll have a role to play, even if it's not necessarily an amazingly prominent one. But as for disconnect from the main story? I can definitely see that happening. Gimple has always done this with Carol.
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atlanta
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Post by atlanta on May 23, 2017 10:48:10 GMT -5
Hope no. Carol deserve her own arc
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Post by Ripley on May 23, 2017 11:09:37 GMT -5
A great topic Meggo358, thanks for starting it. Many great comments here from everyone. I do not think TV Carol is a plot for plot match to comic Michonne although she has gotten some of the basics of Michonne's story in past seasons. Carol outliving her comic counterpart created a need for the show to give her some story after the comic character's death. So she got the isolation, the disappearances written in new ways, as Michonne experienced. Carol has not had the romantic relationships with Tryeese, Morgan, king Ezekiel nor did she discover Oceanside (Tara did in season 7) We have seen, as y'all noted so well above, that comic Michonne and comic Andrea's traits have shifted, with Michonne becoming Rick's partner, Sasha getting Andrea's sniper skills and Carol growing so strong though some of what comic Michonne experienced through her isolation. What makes it hard for fans is that the show sometimes translates things from the comic almost word for work, but other times, reshapes a plotline to the point where it barely resembles the original. It would almost be easier if the show were constant in how it twists things from the comic but that will not happen. What concerns me is seeing fans feeling torn apart every second worrying that Carol is going to hook up with male character X (insert character of choice: Tyreese, Morgan, Ezekiel) who is anyone but Daryl, when that is who that person wants her with. it limits fans' ability to enjoy the show or look forward to anything because the worry over what choices Carol will make is so constant, year round- through filming and broacast season alike. That is no fun to feel. Seeing other fans, with "agendas" as honkytonkwoman said so well, use comic Michonne's arc to bludgeon Carol fans and Caryl fans year-round is also disheartening although the hate tactics are just a part of every fandom, not limited just to TWD. In short, no, I do not think it works to impose every comic Michonne plotline or choice onto Carol- it won;t be accurate. But the big picture guideline arcs- losing a child, isolation, becoming strong through adversity, all fit. TV Carol and comic Michonne are incredibly strong women tempered through loss, who went from being mothers to warriors due to a little thing called the ZA.
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Post by murph on May 23, 2017 11:16:30 GMT -5
Hope no. Carol deserve her own arc She's had her own arcs. The show follows the comic, that is the basis of it, no matter how much Gimple might like his original one shot material. Comic Carol is not only dead, but she's incredibly different from show Carol. Overall, Carol has to fit into a comic storyline and a lot of Comic Michonne's storylining has to fit with a show character, in some way or another. It's not an insult against Carol.
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Post by weeds_or_wildflowers on May 23, 2017 11:59:29 GMT -5
Carol deserves her own story, and solving the conflicts of her story, and not creating new ones (from the comics) from scratch. Somewhere their stories really resonate, but this is not one and the same character, but it seems SG forgot about it for the last two years
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Post by pammielf on May 23, 2017 12:14:00 GMT -5
TV Carol is not 100% comic Michonne. Imo, she isn't even 50% comic Michonne. As Ripley pointed out, and thank you for doing so, Carol hasn't had those relationships that comic Michonne has had. Imo there will be nothing between Carol and Ezekiel other than friendship.
Sadly, people who are ABC'ers and ABD'ers are using those relationships as proof that Carzekiel is a done deal as comic Michonne and comic Ezekiel were. Carol got the part of Andrea's story with Spencer from the comics where they have a brief thing and Andrea winds up leaving. Sound familiar Mr. Home Depot?
Certain folks have made it their mission to inflict as much angst as possible on Carylers because they didn't get what they wanted. I'm not worried about the Michonne/Ezekiel comic story happening with TV Carol/Ezekial. Absolutely nothing points to it and tptb have no interest in it imo or Carol would have already been physically involved with Tyresse, Morgan and Ezekiel.
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atlanta
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Post by atlanta on May 23, 2017 12:23:42 GMT -5
Hope no. Carol deserve her own arc She's had her own arcs. The show follows the comic, that is the basis of it, no matter how much Gimple might like his original one shot material. Comic Carol is not only dead, but she's incredibly different from show Carol. Overall, Carol has to fit into a comic storyline and a lot of Comic Michonne's storylining has to fit with a show character, in some way or another. It's not an insult against Carol. I didn’t say it was an insult, I said she deserves her own arc. Since Comic Carol died long ago, Show Carol isn’t tied to her counterpart in the comic in nothing. Show Michonne also isn’t equal to Comic Michonne, nor to Comic Andrea. Also they have already tied Carol with part of Comic Michonne arc, at least with her lovers, differently with Tyreese and Morgan, and not yet defined with Ezekiel
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Post by murph on May 23, 2017 12:53:35 GMT -5
She's had her own arcs. The show follows the comic, that is the basis of it, no matter how much Gimple might like his original one shot material. Comic Carol is not only dead, but she's incredibly different from show Carol. Overall, Carol has to fit into a comic storyline and a lot of Comic Michonne's storylining has to fit with a show character, in some way or another. It's not an insult against Carol. I didn’t say it was an insult, I said she deserves her own arc. Since Comic Carol died long ago, Show Carol isn’t tied to her counterpart in the comic in nothing. Show Michonne also isn’t equal to Comic Michonne, nor to Comic Andrea. Also they have already tied Carol with part of Comic Michonne arc, at least with her lovers, differently with Tyreese and Morgan, and not yet defined with Ezekiel But to say she deserves her own arc suggests getting a Comic Michonne one is sub-par, that she deserves something more, whereas my point is her getting Comic Michonne storylines is not a bad thing. It's not a less than thing. It's not something she deserves better than, because getting comic storylining is what everybody gets. And she has had her own arcs. I don't really know what it means to say she should get her own. Does that mean she can never do any comic material? At which point does an arc become her own if it has any bearing of the comic? It's impossible. She, like everyone else, has to cover some comic material. So for her to have totally non-comic material and for that to be the only thing good enough for her -it's not something that can happen and instead it dismisses the good, and sometimes original, material that has already happened. Show Carol isn't tied to Comic Carol, but she is still tied to the premise of the show, which is a comic adaption. She, like everyone absolutely will fall in line with comic material, because it is what the show is. And yes, Michonne will follow Comic Andrea plot-points and role, as she has been. It's not about being equal, or any indication that anything is less or more than the other. It's just plot-point guidance, because the show follows the story of the comic and those comic roles have to be filled. Yes, the relationships dynamics are different between Carol and Comic Michonne, but the characters involved are not. That's relevant.
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atlanta
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Post by atlanta on May 23, 2017 13:11:59 GMT -5
I didn’t say it was an insult, I said she deserves her own arc. Since Comic Carol died long ago, Show Carol isn’t tied to her counterpart in the comic in nothing. Show Michonne also isn’t equal to Comic Michonne, nor to Comic Andrea. Also they have already tied Carol with part of Comic Michonne arc, at least with her lovers, differently with Tyreese and Morgan, and not yet defined with Ezekiel But to say she deserves her own arc suggests getting a Comic Michonne one is sub-par, that she deserves something more, whereas my point is her getting Comic Michonne storylines is not a bad thing. It's not a less than thing. It's not something she deserves better than, because getting comic storylining is what everybody gets. And she has had her own arcs. I don't really know what it means to say she should get her own. Does that mean she can never do any comic material? At which point does an arc become her own if it has any bearing of the comic? It's impossible. She, like everyone else, has to cover some comic material. So for her to have totally non-comic material and for that to be the only thing good enough for her -it's not something that can happen and instead it dismisses the good, and sometimes original, material that has already happened. Show Carol isn't tied to Comic Carol, but she is still tied to the premise of the show, which is a comic adaption. She, like everyone absolutely will fall in line with comic material, because it is what the show is. And yes, Michonne will follow Comic Andrea plot-points and role, as she has been. It's not about being equal, or any indication that anything is less or more than the other. It's just plot-point guidance, because the show follows the story of the comic and those comic roles have to be filled. Yes, the relationships dynamics are different between Carol and Comic Michonne, but the characters involved are not. That's relevant. Show Carol is a great character, deserves to be well used. All the characters are tied to the comic, since the show is an adaptation, but they don't have to follow identically to their counterpart of the comic or the comic arc that has been assigned to them
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Post by Starlight on May 23, 2017 13:47:34 GMT -5
Is Carol comic Michonne and my answer is Yes and No.
Yes SG will mostly likely have her lead The Kindgom in some way.
she did get the depressed arc.
And it does look like SG might have done the pirate arc with her when he stuck Carol in the creepy house for a season. But I'm not sold on that yet. I think Tara might join Oceanside down the line after AOW.
She does have friendships with comics Michonne's boyfriend's.
No Where the similarities end for me is that Tv Carol's personality is completely different to comic Michonne's.
SG uses other comic arcs for Carol and I think that will continue.
Daryl being involved Carol's arcs is already is a huge change to the comics.
All of Carol's relationships with comic Michonne's boyfriends are non- romantic and I really think that will continue.
SG gave comic Michonne's Oceanside introduction to Tara. And he added Morgan to The kindgom location too, it just wasn't Carol.
My thought is that Carol and Maggie will both take over there locations at the same time paralleling each other. Which means I think both will be leading Hilltop / The Kindgom by the MSF. And i really hope that The Kindgom doesn't disappear after AOW. But I think as The kingdom doesn't have much of a presence, SG might remix the location to his liking.
Also to me of you are one of those fans who really believe that Carol is being transformed 100% Comic Michonne. Then you have to believe that Tv Michonne is 100% comic Andrea. And Tv Michonne will end up like Andrea in the comics.
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Post by Mia on May 23, 2017 16:33:56 GMT -5
I hope she gets nothing else of Comic Michonne. I want more of season 3 and 4 Carol. This sad Carol is getting old. It was old when it was happening to Michonne in the comics. And if Carol treats Zeke like Michonne did at times. The fans will hate hate hate her.
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Post by greaterpursuit on May 23, 2017 16:41:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure there's much rhyme or reason behind decisions Gimple makes regarding who gets which characters comic arcs and how much of it they will get. At least not story reasons.
Various characters seem to get iconic or pivotal moments in the histories of other characters, but have any of the comic characters, other than main ones, received a direct adaptation of their comic arcs?
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 18:20:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure there's much rhyme or reason behind decisions Gimple makes regarding who gets which characters comic arcs and how much of it they will get. At least not story reasons. Various characters seem to get iconic or pivotal moments in the histories of other characters, but have any of the comic characters, other than main ones, received a direct adaptation of their comic arcs?h I think there's been a mix up pretty much for all of the characters. Maggie, Glenn, rick and carl seem to be fairly consistent with their comic arcs but that's pretty much it. I think Andrea dying, plus daryls mere existence has changed/disrupted the stories of a lot of the other characters.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 23, 2017 18:44:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure there's much rhyme or reason behind decisions Gimple makes regarding who gets which characters comic arcs and how much of it they will get. At least not story reasons. Various characters seem to get iconic or pivotal moments in the histories of other characters, but have any of the comic characters, other than main ones, received a direct adaptation of their comic arcs?h I think there's been a mix up pretty much for all of the characters. Maggie, Glenn, rick and carl seem to be fairly consistent with their comic arcs but that's pretty much it. I think Andrea dying, plus daryls mere existence has changed/disrupted the stories of a lot of the other characters. I'm rereading the comics. Beth got comic Maggie's suicide attempt. Carol took the guns from the armory instead of Glenn, Carol also had the twins (sisters). There were other notable differences I noticed. Oh and Rick going crazy at the prison ruined Rick for me. It made sense in the comics but I have a lot of trouble with the TV version.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 23, 2017 19:28:32 GMT -5
I think there's been a mix up pretty much for all of the characters. Maggie, Glenn, rick and carl seem to be fairly consistent with their comic arcs but that's pretty much it. I think Andrea dying, plus daryls mere existence has changed/disrupted the stories of a lot of the other characters. I'm rereading the comics. Beth got comic Maggie's suicide attempt. Carol took the guns from the armory instead of Glenn, Carol also had the twins (sisters). There were other notable differences I noticed. Oh and Rick going crazy at the prison ruined Rick for me. It made sense in the comics but I have a lot of trouble with the TV version. Yeah, I think all characters have had some things mixed up - overall I think some of the mains have pretty much had their main stories unfold. Really curious as to why rick going crazy ruined him for you.....I may be tagging you in another thread : )
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Post by honkytonkwoman on May 23, 2017 22:23:18 GMT -5
Really curious as to why rick going crazy ruined him for you.....I may be tagging you in another thread : ) In the comics, Rick had lost everything. Lori, Judith, the prison. TV Rick lost his ex-wife? estranged wife? I am still confused about their relationship. Lori talked about how if it were pre-ZA, they would be hiring a divorce lawyer, and Rick seemed to agree. I think AL is a good actor, but he didn't sell the scene where he learned about Lori to me. I just couldn't buy it. Then the way he neglected his kids, just sealed it for me. I felt like it was more about his ego than losing a loved one. I really blame the writing more than anything. It just didn't work for me.
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Post by dark sister on May 24, 2017 8:24:51 GMT -5
I loved crazy train Rick but that's for another thread.
A lot of my feelings about Carol being comic Michonne have already echoed. My main concern will always be disconnect from the main story, and from the Georgia group as those are the relationships I long for the most. I like the Kingdom and the Kingdomites, but I'd rather see Carol have meaningful scenes with the people she went to Virginia with. I hope Gimple can find the balance of making her follow comic Michonne, but keep those relationships close.
I do think her creepy house was a version of Michonne's pirate phase. At least I hope it was.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on May 24, 2017 8:49:27 GMT -5
dark sister I'm truly hoping the pirate thing is skipped over, not just for Carol but for all characters. But I'm hopeful that's the case given what carols story was last year .
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Post by dark sister on May 24, 2017 9:20:44 GMT -5
dark sister I'm truly hoping the pirate thing is skipped over, not just for Carol but for all characters. But I'm hopeful that's the case given what carols story was last year . If I didn't already think Kirkman has an issue with women, I'd wonder what the hell he was thinking when he gave his most iconic character THAT story.
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