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Post by Ripley on Apr 3, 2017 10:07:56 GMT -5
In 6.16, 'Last Day on Earth', Negan was terrifying because he could not be reasoned with and was determined to Lucille one character in the lineup. He ended up taking two after Daryl broke the line, punched him and had to be restrained. Goodbye Abe and Glenn! In 7.16 though, he was betrayed by Dwight, fooled by Eugene although Negan has his suspicions, was fooled by Sasha, who suicided inside her coffin so she could be the only "one has to die". Negan also believed Dwight's ploy that Dr. Harlen Carson colluded to save Sherry and missed Dwight's own role there. So how stupid has TWD made Negan look, compared to his ruthless, sharp comic counterpart? Has TWD show ruined Negan forever? By making Negan able to be fooled so easily by Dwight, Eugene and Sasha, plus take his time following up n the news from Jadis' group that Rick was collecting and arming the ASZ, did TWD turn Negan into a powerless speechifyin' patsy? I'm curious about this because comic Negan was so frightening, powerful and lost AOW due to circumstances, not because he looked or was stupid. I have some problems with how the show used JDM in season 7 because I think they hurt/ruined the character forever by having him so easily fooled and betrayed without catching on. Negan in the comic was never a favorite of mine because Glenn was my favorite male character. So I know I have that bias. Still, I am disappointed that Negan seems so powerless in 7-B to find out plans and betrayals and stop those as the comic character would do. If you stick a dangerous ruthless killer in a cage for years and fear him to the point where those bringing his food are cautioned to never talk with him, that is one thing. If you cage a guy who can be easily fooled though, it is much less scary. I kinda miss not getting the purer comic Negan. Ogg can stare and freeze the blood in veins, as his Westworld character did many times in season 1. Jeffrey Dean Morgan did the same for me in 6.16 (until all that dang speechifying started- 13 minutes worth in 6.16 in case you wanted to know) but 7-B seemed to leach out some the badass somehow. Thoughts? blackjack , I know Negan is your favorite character, so am very curious for your opinion here, if you care to share it.
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Post by murph on Apr 3, 2017 10:39:11 GMT -5
Can I add the obliviousness of the Wives also plotting his death? I mean, he really has little clue what's going on right in front of him.
The finale also should have shown him that he is not knowledgeable enough about what he thinks he controls. Maggie being alive and hidden, a community he thinks he's in power of attacking and having a fucking tiger. And dude didn't have a clue and worse, he thought he did.
Yes I think he's too stupid to be frightening. I also find him the least authentic and most one-dimensional so I'm just not going to find him frightening. And he drones on. And on. And on and on. That's another big tick for non-scary for me.
But, now with AOW, I think there is a potential for a reset. For him to acknowledge the chaos and try to take back control. Not with speeches and eye-rolling lines, but with some calculation. They can blame it on arrogance, hype of Team Family even - it's only all happened because oh how so very special Team Family are, they've changed the status quo and are making him evolve. That it's more about how impressive Team Family are and less how shit he is. I think that's an option the show can use. Whether they will or not, I have no idea.
Negan did make me laugh in the finale. Well, snicker at least. That's an absolute first for me. Some of his reactions in the fight were amusing. They were entertaining.
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Post by Ripley on Apr 3, 2017 11:00:49 GMT -5
Thanks, murph for adding in the examples of the Wives, Maggie being alive and other great points I forgot in my OP. You raise a great premise that Negan can be reset and return to his more frightening, more powerful ways with the AOW arc.
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Post by greaterpursuit on Apr 3, 2017 12:35:18 GMT -5
Short answer to the question: Yes.
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Post by walkingdeadrules on Apr 3, 2017 13:00:58 GMT -5
He was frightening in 6 x 16. But his droning on and on have made him way more annoying to me than anything else and just wish for his death.
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Post by Ripley on Apr 3, 2017 13:09:37 GMT -5
I'd like Negan to die being droned at to death by Eugene talking about what killed the dinosaurs, as "Easy Street" plays on loop. Seems fitting to me walkingdeadrules .
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Post by scarletbegonias on Apr 3, 2017 13:15:31 GMT -5
I haven't found him frightening yet, to me he has been ludicrous since Day 1.
I think the trough scene from S5 was scarier than the LV line up. Those 2 men in their butcher aprons, the palpable fear in all of the men lined up seeing how they were going to be killed, and the suspense of watching that guy get ready for a swing at Glenn plus the idea that they were cannibals was absolutely terrifying.
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Post by buttercup on Apr 3, 2017 18:28:12 GMT -5
I'd like Negan to die being drones at to death by Eugene talking about what killed the dinosaurs, as "Easy Street" plays on loop. Seems fitting to me walkingdeadrules . And he would have to be gagged, otherwise he would try to talk.
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Post by blackjack on Apr 3, 2017 22:26:16 GMT -5
I love him. I love his speeches and find them hilarious.
The show's version of Negan is not as smart or strategic as the comic version and I find that a little irritating. In the comics, he was always prepared and one step ahead of others. This is one area I think the show has fucked up.
Now, I don't think he's stupid, but he is delusional and overconfident. He is too easily fooled because he believes what he wants to. As far as the doctor goes, I think he just chose who he wanted to believe. Someone had to pay. Someone had to be punished. He had his new recruit watching and had to make an example out of someone. As long as he has someone else who can do what he needs, everyone's disposable. I think he'll be pissed off, but I don't think he'll be surprised when he eventually finds out Sherry's alive and was the one who released Daryl. I also don't think he's as oblivious as it might seem.
In last night's episode he had everything going fairly well until Shiva's arrival. Negan has never directly dealt with the Kingdom. Gavin is in charge of that part and he never goes in. So, he didn't know about her. I don't fault him for that. He had the dumpster group inside there and would have won if it hadn't been for the attack by the Kingdom and Hilltop. Shiva threw everything off. Rick and Co. won that day, but are in a lot of trouble in this war. We all know they'll win, but I expect heavy casualties on their side. I also expect some very rough times for Eugene fairly soon. Negan suspects him more than just a little and the smallest piece of evidence is all it'll take.
The showrunners need to make some changes as they go. I definitely don't see him as completely ruined forever. I think they just need to make him more aware going forward.
There's a lot more I wanted to say or just word differently, but I'm getting tired. I'll probably post here again tomorrow, when I can think straight.
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Post by MorganBGone on Apr 4, 2017 5:09:29 GMT -5
I haven't found him frightening yet, to me he has been ludicrous since Day 1. I think the trough scene from S5 was scarier than the LV line up. Those 2 men in their butcher aprons, the palpable fear in all of the men lined up seeing how they were going to be killed, and the suspense of watching that guy get ready for a swing at Glenn plus the idea that they were cannibals was absolutely terrifying. I agree with this. The whole set up of Terminus was scarier -- a community that had turned itself into a killing factory, dehumanizing people to the point of their really not having names (rather than just having to call themselves Negan once in awhile). Also, Gareth, casual in in his charm and the underlying mercilessness, was more threatening than Negan, IMO. Even he talked too much... but not THAT much. And, yeah, the trough certainly was as scary a place as the line up... or at least would have been has they gone through with killing a member of TF (missed opportunity, as usual). WRT the overall topic, a couple of reviews of the finale that I read commented on how problematic Rick vs Negan is, which they thought the finale only served to highlight. It's inept leader vs inept leader, and Negan lost this time because he was the more inept, putting on a show when he could have been taking action. He had the upper hand (because Rick was dumb enough to put blind trust in bizarro trash people) and squandered it. I can't disagree. Part of the problem with the show is that Rick's "leadership" often raises the question "why are people letting him lead?", and now he has a rival who seems to raise the exact same question. The Governor was old school charming but ruthless, and anything else was concealed from his people. The show clearly presented why he was followed. Gareth was, despite being younger than many of those following him, calm, seemingly smart, and largely controlled, explaining his position. Negan is the abuser, ruling by fear, I suppose... but he's also a blathering narcissist who's hard to take seriously despite the maiming and killing. One shouldn't have to remind oneself constantly why someone's a leader. Even Joe, with his band of nasty antisocial men, was consistently believable as the senior statesman and enforcer of rules. But Negan? Somehow it's suspension of disbelief when it really shouldn't have to be -- similar to that required for the constant deference to Rick despite horrible choices and obvious visits to crazy town. I agree with the reviewers in question: part of the reason the story's not working is that neither leader involved seems entirely equipped to lead (beyond simply being "alpha male"), and it's being boiled down to a competition of poor choices. So yeah, Negan's too stupid, or at least too blinded by his own narcissism, to be frightening, which is not helped either by JDM's cartoonish characterization.
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Post by zinc on Apr 4, 2017 6:08:51 GMT -5
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Post by Ripley on Apr 4, 2017 6:53:58 GMT -5
I love him. I love his speeches and find them hilarious. The show's version of Negan is not as smart or strategic as the comic version and I find that a little irritating. In the comics, he was always prepared and one step ahead of others. This is one area I think the show has fucked up. Now, I don't think he's stupid, but he is delusional and overconfident. He is too easily fooled because he believes what he wants to. As far as the doctor goes, I think he just chose who he wanted to believe. Someone had to pay. Someone had to be punished. He had his new recruit watching and had to make an example out of someone. As long as he has someone else who can do what he needs, everyone's disposable. I think he'll be pissed off, but I don't think he'll be surprised when he eventually finds out Sherry's alive and was the one who released Daryl. I also don't think he's as oblivious as it might seem. In last night's episode he had everything going fairly well until Shiva's arrival. Negan has never directly dealt with the Kingdom. Gavin is in charge of that part and he never goes in. So, he didn't know about her. I don't fault him for that. He had the dumpster group inside there and would have won if it hadn't been for the attack by the Kingdom and Hilltop. Shiva threw everything off. Rick and Co. won that day, but are in a lot of trouble in this war. We all know they'll win, but I expect heavy casualties on their side. I also expect some very rough times for Eugene fairly soon. Negan suspects him more than just a little and the smallest piece of evidence is all it'll take.The showrunners need to make some changes as they go. I definitely don't see him as completely ruined forever. I think they just need to make him more aware going forward. There's a lot more I wanted to say or just word differently, but I'm getting tired. I'll probably post here again tomorrow, when I can think straight. Many excellent points here blackjack and i look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this when you are able to share those. MorganBGone and zinc, you both make great points to whether in words or gifs- thanks for pointing out the flaws in the Rick v Negan when both arebad leaders and also the cardboard cartoon cutout point.
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
Posts: 1,749
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Post by Meggo358 on Apr 4, 2017 12:11:15 GMT -5
All season long I've been frustrated by the lack of menace Negan conveys in combination with everyone seemingly being broken by his presence. There's just no reason for this character to be unconquerable - I do think that what Ripley and murph have summarized is a good representation of how foolish and dumb JDM's Negan can be. The show's mistake, IMO is thinking a bunch of one liners and swagger would make up for this bully with a bat lacking much strategy. But I will also say that worse than negan being too easily fooled to be an effective villian is that all of the characters in his orbit have to be lessened in order to have negan exist as a real threat: how many chances did TF and company have to kill negan? How easy would it have been for Daryl to pretend to be a part of the saviors only to turn on him later (yes, there would have been consequences but it would have worked)? Even Shiva had to be dumbed down: the tiger is smart enough to only go after bad guys but not smart enough to go after the "main bad guy?" thats quite a line for the kitty to walk. At the end of the day, I'm going to have a difficult time buying Negan's dominance going forward. I do think he's pretty much a bust as a bad guy. His control over his group never really made sense in the first place, and so I'm anxious to see in season 8 Rick and co assume more control over the situation.
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Post by dark sister on Apr 4, 2017 12:45:06 GMT -5
The thing I find the most frustrating is that JDM COULD play him menacing if he wanted to. He's very capable of being a scary dude. He should leave the theatrics to Ezekiel. The speechifying and leaning aren't doing it for me.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Apr 4, 2017 12:47:23 GMT -5
He was frightening in 6 x 16. But his droning on and on have made him way more annoying to me than anything else and just wish for his death. Plus, what happened to the tyrant we saw in 6x16 who exacted swift punishment for TF's wrongdoings? I'm not trying to get any more of the Atlanta 5 + M&M killed, but Negan lost all chance of ever being scary again, imo, when he didn't bring Carl's severed head/hand/finger/even a flowing lock of hair back to Alexandria after the boy tried to kill him.
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Post by MorganBGone on Apr 4, 2017 13:37:28 GMT -5
Why did Shiva go for random Savior, rather than the guy menacingly wielding a bat? Oh right, because the show still needs its big bad. It's also hard to take Negan seriously when the show goes out of its way to keep him alive.
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