atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Jan 2, 2017 22:12:53 GMT -5
Is it the right time to start a relationship?
Does she have the right mental state to start something romantic?
Can she think of love in the middle of a war?
Maybe it's not the right time, she need to heal first before she start something new.
(English is not my birth language, sorry for the mistakes)
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Post by honkytonkwoman on Jan 2, 2017 22:43:34 GMT -5
I think Carol is in the process of healing and will soon be ready to love fully.
She deserves a partner because she's a woman in her prime who endured an abusive marriage and the heartbreak of losing her child then so much more. She knows she can survive alone, but she deserves to be cherished and to have a healthy relationship.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Jan 2, 2017 23:26:16 GMT -5
I don't think she needs a partner, but I certainly want her to have one in Daryl. I don't know who Carol was pre-Ed, did she love someone(s) else, but for whatever reasons it didn't work out? Has anyone ever loved her for who she is, warts and all? I want that kind of love for her and I'm convinced Daryl can give her that and she, in return, can give him the same.
My way of thinking is that there's never a right time to fall in love, and life in the ZA is too unpredictable and dangerous to wait until everything is settled for it will never be, at least not in their lifetime.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 2, 2017 23:50:00 GMT -5
Is it the right time to start a relationship? Does she have the right mental state to start something romantic? Can she think of love in the middle of a war? Maybe it's not the right time, she need to heal first before she start something new. (English is not my birth language, sorry for the mistakes) Thanks for starting such a great topic atlanta ! Your English is fine, no worries. In seasons 1-3, I would have sad Carol needed a partner more than she does now. She was learning then, healing and changing from the losses of Ed, Sophia, Jacqi, Lori, Dale and Andrea, getting to know her new self who could handle weapons and be a capable member of the group in ways she had never imagined when the ZA broke out. She learned and tried new things, grew and found a part of herself she had always wanted to be by the time season 4 started for us. By that point, she no longer needed a partner at all, although having someone special to love and be loved by (not to mention sexy times of course ) would have helped ease the pain of ZA life for her perhaps. The David and Betsy incident in 'Thank You' in which we saw David telling Michonne about his wife Betsy, who was another ZA survivor he met and fell in love with, did raise an interesting issue about how people love in dystopian conditions such as the ZA. Do you worry more for that person and their possibly dying and how does that change the ways in which you love? But that's a question for another topic so I will not hijack this one. lol. Back to Carol- I want her to have love, support, and some desperately needed happiness now after the horrible time she has spent in seasons 4-7, so I would like her to have a relationship to bring her some joy and to give her hope to build a new and better life. Do I think she is ready right now for a relationship? Nope, absolutely not- we saw with Tobin that that sham excuse for a relationship just gave Carol another place to hide and not be herself, but rather be just the Carol the other person expected. She hid from everyone except Daryl in season 6-B and he only got through at the end of The Same Boat. Carol needs some time to rest, to simply lay down her burdens whether that requires staying alone, reading books, eating fruit and just "being", instead of doing, She need to recharge, to decide what she wants from life and what prices she is prepared to pay to get or keep that life, just as everyone has to pay some price for the life they want. Once she decides that, she can better assess where she is, and hopefully finally put behind her the terrible, necessary choices of the past and move on, having dealt with that crushing soul-weight and move forward towards the future in an emotionally healthy space. Carol doesnt need a partner to survive, the way Lori did or others did at Woodbury or the ASZ. Because I like Carol and want her to have all the nice things, I also want her to have love eventually and feel the sypport she has lacked most of her life, along with laughter, great sex and better clothes.
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Post by v on Jan 3, 2017 0:00:58 GMT -5
Here's the thing, Carol doesn't NEED a sexual partner. She really doesn't. But (come on, you knew there was a BUT coming) As someone that has been through what Carol has been through, I can appreciate the fact that she may WANT someone to love as more than "friend" or "family". It took me a long time to be ready to love someone, to trust them enough to open myself up to that again. It wasn't easy and there were times that I was so afraid to "love" someone like that I figured I was better off alone. My self-esteme was at an all time low, I got twitchy if anyone other than my children touched me and I had a deep mistrust of men in general. I had to work on myself, allow my self to heal and then I met my husband. (we've been together for 20 years and married 15) It wasn't that I needed a man ( or any partner for that matter) to make me feel complete. I was fine on my own but having a partner, someone that understands me and that I can share my thoughts feelings and life with is something I WANTED. This ties in with Carol because, those of us that LOVE her want to see her happy. If that happiness is being in a relationship ( and I am talking about a real relationship, not the fake one she had with Tobin.) then we want it for her. We don't know how the show is gonna go, they may never put her with someone in a real way, but if they do then we want it to be something she wants, not something she feels is expected and we want it to be real. No she isn't currently in a state for romance but hopefully she will eventually get to that point and will be willing to take that leap with someone. (cough cough Daryl cough)
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Post by gia on Jan 3, 2017 0:38:47 GMT -5
Is it the right time to start a relationship? Does she have the right mental state to start something romantic? Can she think of love in the middle of a war? Maybe it's not the right time, she need to heal first before she start something new. (English is not my birth language, sorry for the mistakes) Thanks for starting such a great topic atlanta ! Your English is fine, no worries. In seasons 1-3, I would have sad Carol needed a partner more than she does now. She was learning then, healing and changing from the losses of Ed, Sophia, Jacqi, Lori, Dale and Andrea, getting to know her new self who could handle weapons and be a capable member of the group in ways she had never imagined when the ZA broke out. She learned and tried new things, grew and found a part of herself she had always wanted to be by the time season 4 started for us. By that point, she no longer needed a partner at all, although having someone special to love and be loved by (not to mention sexy times of course ) would have helped ease the pain of ZA life for her perhaps. The David and Betsy incident in 'Thank You' in which we saw David telling Michonne about his wife Betsy, who was another ZA survivor he met and fell in love with, did raise an interesting issue about how people love in dystopian conditions such as the ZA. Do you worry more for that person and their possibly dying and how does that change the ways in which you love? But that's a question for another topic so I will not hijack this one. lol. Back to Carol- I want her to have love, support, and some desperately needed happiness now after the horrible time she has spent in seasons 4-7, so I would like her to have a relationship to bring her some joy and to give her hope to build a new and better life. Do I think she is ready right now for a relationship? Nope, absolutely not- we saw with Tobin that that sham excuse for a relationship just gave Carol another place to hide and not be herself, but rather be just the Carol the other person expected. She hid from everyone except Daryl in season 6-B and he only got through at the end of The Same Boat. Carol needs some time to rest, to simply lay down her burdens whether that requires staying alone, reading books, eating fruit and just "being", instead of doing, She need to recharge, to decide what she wants from life and what prices she is prepared to pay to get or keep that life, just as everyone has to pay some price for the life they want. Once she decides that, she can better assess where she is, and hopefully finally put behind her the terrible, necessary choices of the past and move on, having dealt with that crushing soul-weight and move forward towards the future in an emotionally healthy space. Carol doesnt need a partner to survive, the way Lori did or others did at Woodbury or the ASZ. Because I like Carol and want her to have all the nice things, I also want her to have love eventually and feel the sypport she has lacked most of her life, along with laughter, great sex and better clothes. Lol at "better clothes". And I agree.
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Post by gia on Jan 3, 2017 0:43:33 GMT -5
Is it the right time to start a relationship? Does she have the right mental state to start something romantic? Can she think of love in the middle of a war? Maybe it's not the right time, she need to heal first before she start something new. (English is not my birth language, sorry for the mistakes) I think Carol is finally getting closer to being able to have a relationship. She told Daryl she couldn't let herself feel, and that has led her to a breakdown. So now she is healing, and hopefully she can reach a place of comfort in herself and ability to love another and be loved in return.
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Post by murph on Jan 3, 2017 2:15:36 GMT -5
I absolutely think now is the time for a very specific romantic relationship for Carol, simply because Carol herself is letting "love" dictate so much of her thoughts, feelings and actions as it is. She is currently choosing to let her feelings about love and those whom she loves influence just as much if not more than any character actually in a relationship. She already is thinking of love in the middle of a war. She's thinking of it now. It's a negative current conclusion, but it's still one led by what it means to love - and to love and to live with love - in that world. She's already immersed herself in that place, so yes, I think now is a good time to follow through with that - and I believe it's the only way she's going to actually realistically fully get through what she's currently going through, with good conclusion. Because she has associated so much of what she is going through with her association of 'love', and her connection to people, she has to reevaluate that to what's actually reality.
I really appreciate the use of 'why does Carol need a partner', because that's exactly is, a partner. Tobin wasn't a partner, that's why she chose him, because he could never be an actual partner to her. And she's currently avoiding such a situation, it is ruling her so much.
Typically I would say 'no, she certainly does not need a partner', but I think she actually might. As I said, I think to get through this requires coming to terms with how she feels about those she loves, and what it actually means to love them and what it actually means for them to love her (both things I think she's unclear of at the moment) In order to settle that, love - love of another and their love of her - HAS to be concluded. I don't think it's just about Carol's personal confidence and opinion of herself, I don't believe she can heal herself, by herself. She's isolated herself to a house, doing nothing, with nobody. It's not living, it's not healing. It's an avoidance, that will go nowhere without a push from someone she already loves. Her reaction, her motivation, will once again be about and decided by love.
I also don't typically feed into what people may 'deserve', because that's not something I can make a decision on and nobody gets what they actually deserve anyway so why does the question really matter to a third party person as it's sort of meaningless, however, I think Carol would be a very good example for someone deserving some goodness; a partner, an equal she shares that comfort and understanding and support and love with. And not only Carol has an individual - and not only Daryl as an individual either, whom I also think deserves that goodness too - but the world benefits better from a healthy, loving Carol. She is at her best, most competent, resourceful and playful, smiling self when she loves. So maybe the world itself also is deserving of a healthy and loving Carol Peletier.
Great thread!
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Post by scarletbegonias on Jan 3, 2017 10:58:56 GMT -5
When is the right time, though? I'm a Caryl shipper, maybe not as enthusiastic as I used to be, but will there ever be a "good" time to advance the relationship? It's unlikely that there will be peaceful, risk free living and going it alone is a fail, her heart and mind is already engaged and distance won't change that.
I'd like to see Carol with a partner because romantic love is a part of life that can be incredibly fulfilling; having a person dedicated and willing to walk along with, to take those brave steps toward love including all the joy, pleasure, comfort and even the exposure and risk of heartbreak that goes with it would be an amazing experience for her (and Daryl, too).
Who knows what tomorrow brings (in a world few hearts survive...♫) I think they need to listen to that Joe Cocker and Jennifer Warnes song and reach for the brass ring.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 3, 2017 17:33:56 GMT -5
murph and @scarlettbegonias, wow, your posts are beautifully written raising many terrific points. Now I am rethinking part of my stance here.
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Jan 3, 2017 18:19:24 GMT -5
When is the right time, though? I'm a Caryl shipper, maybe not as enthusiastic as I used to be, but will there ever be a "good" time to advance the relationship? It's unlikely that there will be peaceful, risk free living and going it alone is a fail, her heart and mind is already engaged and distance won't change that. I'd like to see Carol with a partner because romantic love is a part of life that can be incredibly fulfilling; having a person dedicated and willing to walk along with, to take those brave steps toward love including all the joy, pleasure, comfort and even the exposure and risk of heartbreak that goes with it would be an amazing experience for her (and Daryl, too). Who knows what tomorrow brings (in a world few hearts survive...♫) I think they need to listen to that Joe Cocker and Jennifer Warnes song and reach for the brass ring. It's true, Carol needs love and happiness, I don't deny that, but it's necessary make her couple with so many people: Daryl, Ezekiel, Morgan, Tobin and whoever walks around, particularly I preferred Daryl above everyone else, but well I think it's too much I don't know if she's at the right time to start something. And obvius Daryl also deserves love and happiness
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Post by booksrbetter on Jan 3, 2017 18:23:28 GMT -5
Right time? Let's see Season one-Ed died. She's a new widow. Season Two- Her daughter goes missing and shows up as a walker. Season Three-Carol has survived seven months on the road, then her family fights a psychopath who's trying to take her home. Her best friends die and Daryl leaves to go with Merle. Season Four-She get banished after she mercy kills two sick people. She loses one daughter when she is murdered by her sister and then Carol has to kill her other daughter. Season Five-She has to kill people, gets ran over and is a coma, travels to Virginia, and tries to adjust to Alexandria. Season six-she fights off a Wolf raid, Alexandria is overran by walkers, and is knocked unconscious. She survives being taken prisoner by the saviors. Later she leaves Alexandria, fights off a small herd of saviors. She is wounded and then tortured by another savior. So Season seven looks like it is about damn time she got a best friend. Someone who can understand what she has been through and who would have her back in perilous situations. There is a war coming on but she's waited through six seasons. Carol's leaving Alexandria has given her a chance to think things through. Maybe in her world you don't get months of therapy. Maybe you get two weeks and that will have to do.
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Post by AlienSoul on Jan 3, 2017 18:37:28 GMT -5
I've said this before elsewhere, neither Carol nor the other characters, living in the ZA world, can afford to wait for the right time. It's now that matters. Because you could die the next moment or your love interest might die, and as much as that would hurt, I imagine that living with "what ifs" and dying without knowing that kind of love and devotion you'd have in a partner would be worse.
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Jan 3, 2017 18:56:55 GMT -5
I've said this before elsewhere, neither Carol nor the other characters, living in the ZA world, can afford to wait for the right time. It's now that matters. Because you could die the next moment or your love interest might die, and as much as that would hurt, I imagine that living with "what ifs" and dying without knowing that kind of love and devotion you'd have in a partner would be worse. It don't need a ZA to die but if it is true during a ZA it is easier to die than at any other time. But my idea was more for her mind state, Is she in the right mental state to start something? Would be fair to both if she isn't? Tobin is an example, she use him looking normal, obviously Tobin also didn't love her, but I don'ot know, it was just a reflection I really want Carol to find love and happiness, she deserves it after so much drama and loss, but I want her to find true love and happiness, not for the wrong reason
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Post by AlienSoul on Jan 3, 2017 19:05:19 GMT -5
I've said this before elsewhere, neither Carol nor the other characters, living in the ZA world, can afford to wait for the right time. It's now that matters. Because you could die the next moment or your love interest might die, and as much as that would hurt, I imagine that living with "what ifs" and dying without knowing that kind of love and devotion you'd have in a partner would be worse. It don't need a ZA to die but if it is true during a ZA it is easier to die than at any other time. But my idea was more for her mind state, Is she in the right mental state to start something? Would be fair to both if she isn't? Tobin is an example, she use him looking normal, obviously Tobin also didn't love her, but I don'ot know, it was just a reflection I really want Carol to find love and happiness, she deserves it after so much drama and loss, but I want her to find true love and happiness, not for the wrong reason Right now? Last we left her? No. She isn't ready. {Spoiler} By the end of the season when she has clearly started to heal and is ready to fight again? Yes, she will be, IMO.
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Post by murph on Jan 3, 2017 19:06:28 GMT -5
murph and @scarlettbegonias, wow, your posts are beautifully written raising many terrific points. Now I am rethinking part of my stance here. Thanks, Ripley I'm really enjoying this thread! For me it's about what Carol has put out there herself. She's made her leaving about the ones she loves. She's not isolating herself because she can't kill and she hates herself, she's isolating herself because she can't kill and therefore she can't be around the ones she loves and so therefore she hates herself. The letter: 'I love all of you but I can't kill for you', so she can't be there. With Morgan 'and I care about them - that's why I can't be there' (and Morgan getting it right that that is exactly why she has to be there), with Ezekiel: 'I've been to places where I thought I wouldn't have to - where I could just be'. All of it, all of what she is doing is about the ones she loves, by her action, by her admission. And she can't tell them what she did with Lizzie, because she's terrified they will hate her. It is much easier to leave and let them be angry at her for something she can has controlled, as well as something she can excuse away with 'you wouldn't understand' or 'It's for your own good' (as Morgan has shown he's done) as opposed to them actually hating her or thinking terribly of her for something she's actually done when she didn't have a choice, a pure thing she's done. That latter one hurts so much more, and Carol is all about the control. And I think this is why she's stuck - and importantly for me in terms of writing, it's why I actually believe she's stuck, that it is realistic. For her just now love = bad. And the set up means she can't be herself, she can't let go, because how will they react to her. She can't kill and hate herself even more, so therefore she can't be around them because it risks their safety and they could be let down by her, and then there's what her being around them does to them. That's shown with Daryl, with the 'it's who you are' / 'nah, I should have killed him' and the Denise scene as she watches him be angry and want to kill. She can't watch him become that, become her. She can't have the attitude of just killing because look what it does to the ones she loves, but she knows she has to kill in order to live, so she can't live life. So she's just stuck. Her mindset is pretty much to love = going to hell. So she runs. Whereas if she can re-evalute what things, what reality actually means... It changes everything. If she can confess and show weakness and vulnerability and realise she isn't rejected for it (which unfortunately Rick has shown is a very well possibility as far as Carol's experience tells her) and if the definition of what she's done, of what it means to kill (that it doesn't just mean poison and rot and going to hell) can be changed and adjusted as it needs to be...she can and will get through it. And importantly, if she can find a fuller definition of love. That love does not just mean to kill. It means goodness, and smiles and hope and family and truth. And this is why it does only work with someone she already loves, someone she is already associating 'love' with. I honestly don't believe Carol can solve anything by herself here, because it's not about her, it's about her love of others.
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atlanta
Red Shirt
"Fear governs us. That is one of the tools that are used by the powerful, the other is ignorance. "
Posts: 469
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Post by atlanta on Jan 3, 2017 19:09:15 GMT -5
It don't need a ZA to die but if it is true during a ZA it is easier to die than at any other time. But my idea was more for her mind state, Is she in the right mental state to start something? Would be fair to both if she isn't? Tobin is an example, she use him looking normal, obviously Tobin also didn't love her, but I don'ot know, it was just a reflection I really want Carol to find love and happiness, she deserves it after so much drama and loss, but I want her to find true love and happiness, not for the wrong reason Right now? Last we left her? No. She isn't ready. {Spoiler} By the end of the season when she has clearly started to heal and is ready to fight again? Yes, she will be, IMO. You're right maybe that is the time
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Post by scarletbegonias on Jan 3, 2017 19:49:03 GMT -5
atlanta , I understand what you are saying about Carol's mental state, I'd be so happy to see her finally accept the things she has done as necessity, that she did them with the best intentions, and to let go of the guilt that is eating her up. I just think she has to take the risk and let herself be loved. I've pretty much given up on the "healing" that we've all been waiting for because I just don't think tptb are going to delve that deep nor do I think they have the ability to do justice to that facet of her story-considering that Daryl got a workbook and basically some pep talks to address his past abuse and continuous guilt. Of course their ability to move on from their personal histories is ongoing, but I do think tptb are angling for the "love conquers all" trope with a figurative touch of Beauty and the Beast-less physical, more emotional. It's because of this that I think she/they should go for it, let the love flow through them and take the strength and support it generates to move on together most especially because each and every minute counts in this world. Carpe amorem! Carol
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Post by Hypernovadust on Feb 10, 2017 0:31:40 GMT -5
Carol doesn't need a partner to survive, but I really believe she does in the emotional sense. She needs greater fulfillment in her ability to trust another person with some of her deeper issues. She has it to some degree with Daryl, but there are still some walls there that she hasn't let down yet. She's been tasked with bottling up so much so she could be everyone's hero.
Season 7 has created a much better mental space for her, though, to let go of some of that. She no longer has anyone telling her the 'right' way to live, she's not feigning a persona, and she's not pushing her needs aside to, in essence, burn herself alive to keep others warm.
It's a very good place to be when you come at it from the perspective that any major change from this point forward will be voluntary. And that's what matters most of all--coming to terms with the reality of her world and being 100% ready when she takes that next step. She hit rock bottom in Season 6. But as of right now, the only direction left for her to go is up.
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Post by dark sister on Feb 10, 2017 9:14:32 GMT -5
Yes. She needs Daryl.
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Post by greaterpursuit on Feb 10, 2017 18:15:46 GMT -5
Carol definitely doesn't NEED a sexual partner. We learned in "Tell it to the Frogs" that the girl knows how to take care of business on her own! I'm not sure you can be "ready" for anything in the ZA. You just have to grab hold of life and live it, for tomorrow (or an hour from now) you may be dead. I'm loving all the thoughtful analysis in this thread. You all are more selfless than I am, though. I want Carol to have a partner, and for that partner to be Daryl, because I want it. And that's good enough for me!
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Post by v on Feb 11, 2017 3:38:10 GMT -5
I think there is some confusing about what some of us mean by "ready". they live in a zpoc, death, starvation and idiots with bats around every corner. We are not talking about sunshine and kisses in the world for her to be ready, instead we are referring more to mind set. Right now, Carol is dealing with crushing guilt, self-doubt and self-loathing. She is also still trying to overcome everything she went through while married to ed. Something few take into account is how much baggage her act at the ASZ must have brought up. there she was "living" the life she pretended to have had with Ed. Hell, even Tobin was probably a reminder of how wrong her life went. Everything she has done, she has done to protect those she loves BUT she has taken lives, sometimes brutally (although they deserved it for the most part... terminus, the wolves the saviors) as a religious woman in her mind, she broke one of the tenets of her faith... thou shall not kill. What we mean by right time is giving her that time she needs to get to a place (or close to it) that she can forgive herself. She needs to heal her spirit.
the trope that all a woman needs is a man to fix her is one of the tropes I LOATHE more than anything. For her to heal and it to be meaningful and long lasting, it has to come from within. that's not to say she doesn't need a friend, someone that she can talk to, share her burden with... hell we all need that. She needs to be able to safely let go of those secrets that torment her and to have someone LISTEN to her. I know we want it to be daryl, but honestly for what she needs it could be anyone that is willing to listen and NOT judge her.
After that, I feel she may get back to or close to the mental/emotional place she was at the prison, to the person she always thought she should have been. THEN she will be ready and it will be the right time.
being ready or the right time isn't about the outside world, its a state of mind.
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Post by amber2403 on Feb 12, 2017 0:09:30 GMT -5
My main concern for Carol is her happiness. Whether that is in a relationship or alone, I am not too picky. I just think it's time for her to have a little enjoyment in life. One reason to lean toward her having a partner is because I want her to know how it is to be in a relationship with a good person, someone that will appreciate her and value her. Because I think she deserves it.
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Post by sonia on Feb 13, 2017 18:43:08 GMT -5
Is it the right time to start a relationship? Does she have the right mental state to start something romantic? Can she think of love in the middle of a war? Maybe it's not the right time, she need to heal first before she start something new. (English is not my birth language, sorry for the mistakes) Why does Carol need a partner? She doesn't NEED one. Most of the time, people do not enter a relationship because they NEED it (although I'm sure that some do). They do because they fall in love.
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