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Post by Ripley on Jan 2, 2017 13:12:38 GMT -5
I saw in another topic walkingdeadrules mention Carol and Rick needing to clear the air or have something happen to make them "right again" so started this topic so we can all discuss that here. In 'No Sanctuary' Rick made his gratitude towards Carol clear and he later in another episode asked Carl is his group could join her. That was huge since he told her in Indifference that he would not have her around his children and of course she saved Judith and kept her alive after that, even putting down Lizzie who would have killed Judith had she the chance. In season 5, he trusted Carol with his plans and had her as a co-conspirator working with Daryl and him. In season 6, he seemed to trust Carol fully, yet when she left the ASZ, he was willing to give up the search for her fairly quickly despite knowing she was likely injured and alone out there with walkers and possibly Saviors close by. Morgan picked up her trail and refused to leave her on her own, even breaking his personal code of "all Life is precious" to kill the Savior who was going to kill her. So what do Rick and Carol need to say or do with one another to make the relationship clear and right again? Is it even possible for those two to be truly close again as they were at the prison until the deaths of Kavid? Just curious for thoughts here.
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Post by honkytonkwoman on Jan 2, 2017 13:36:16 GMT -5
I don't know if I can fault Rick for giving up the search for Carol. It was really a plot device to have Morgan go after her since Gimple wants them to have that storyline. I don't think it's a reflection of Rick's feelings any more than Maggie not mentioning Beth meant that she didn't care about her.
I doubt that Rick will ever discuss Lizzie's death with Carol or actually acknowledge the sacrifices she made. Let's face it, so far everyone's kids die but Rick's.
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Post by merelei on Jan 2, 2017 13:43:55 GMT -5
This is something that's crossed my mind.
Quite obviously, the actions Rick took had ramifications that had more than one impact (emotionally, socially, etc.) You can see that Rick and Carol just don't interact that much anymore and if they do, it's not the same as it was before Karen and David. Maybe it has something to do with Carol going into disguise the second they passed the gates in Alexandria for the first time, because that separation still affects her and she doesn't feel the same around her family. It doesn't help that she's dealing with what happened in The Grove, and maybe removing herself from that atmosphere of masquerading as someone she isn't, that distance will hopefully help her deal.
It's not just more than one open wound on Carol's psyche and emotions, it's between the characters, especially Carol-Rick-Daryl.
Gimple loves to concentrate on character separation so much, I'm surprised that the characters remember each other's names let alone have scenes together these days. Ronny Haze from MAPP said earlier that the magic of the comics was that the whole group was together all the time, and in the show it's now the opposite. This has got to change because the show is without its heart.
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Post by v on Jan 2, 2017 15:24:01 GMT -5
honestly? consistent writing needs to happen. Things for Rick and Carol have been fubar since SG took over and his need to force characters to act a certain way to fit a plot. I know he says he has things planned out way in advanced but judging by the way the show is telling the stories, you'd think that was pure bs. In Indifference, we saw two people that cared for each other struggling with the actions that were taken at the prison. How do they go from talking about Lori and her shitty pancakes and him pulling her to safety to "I don't want you here" and him fingering his gun? Not to mention the teary eyed look he had as he was driving back to the prison.
In 4.8 he works hard to convince Daryl that Carol wasn't sorry or safe to be around, waiting to tell him about it. (granted that was probably done by the writers for timing so there was no chance of daryl going to look for her) In No Sanctuary, he pulls her into that hug ( done to parallel the hug when they were reunited back in season 3.. per gn) In 4 walls, Rick fought Abraham to look for Carol and Daryl because "Carol saved your life" and mentioned how much he owes her (without knowing HOW much he owes her).
As you said, they worked together at the asz and she was in on his plans. Carol's letter was a bit of a shock for me because of the fact she mentioned the banishment after not having anything about it since 5.2. Why bring it up now other than to give her an excuse to bail...
His comments in East were much appreciated by this Carol fan but it seemed almost too easy for him to let Morgan continue the search without him. this is after he declared she was FAMILY and a force of Nature and that he would have taken the same action at the prison knowing what he knows now.
from a canon show perspective, what needs to happen is an honest conversation between rick and Carol. Her getting that chance to tell him what actually happened at the prison and what happened to Lizzie and Mika. he needs to straight up tell her how sorry he is and tell her all the things he told Morgan.
I miss their bond, but then again I miss Carol having a bond with all of tf. I won't go into my rant again about the shoddy way she is treated and how inconceivable it was that NO ONE noticed her struggles because I have been over that many times.
the best solution, as I said at the beginning of this is consistent writing.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Jan 2, 2017 16:36:27 GMT -5
Three thoughts: 1. Maybe the writers think there's nothing to repair or hasn't already been repaired. As already mentioned, * Rick asked Carol if he could join her * Rick and Michonne discussed how they all owe Carol * Rick went searching for Carol when she bounced from the ASZ. Which to me is a nice, if not poorly done, callback to the banishment. 2. Maybe Carol and Rick's relationship has permanently changed and that's neither good or bad. They are now equals where before he had all the power. 3. The current writers are horrible at writing relationships. off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked.
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
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Post by Meggo358 on Jan 2, 2017 17:28:51 GMT -5
Three thoughts: 1. Maybe the writers think there's nothing to repair or hasn't already been repaired. As already mentioned, * Rick asked Carol if he could join her * Rick and Michonne discussed how they all owe Carol * Rick went searching for Carol when she bounced from the ASZ. Which to me is a nice, if not poorly done, callback to the banishment. 2. Maybe Carol and Rick's relationship has permanently changed and that's neither good or bad. They are now equals where before he had all the power. 3. The current writers are horrible at writing relationships. off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked. I think I would agree with all three of these points - especially number 3 I dont really think there's a problem between rick and carol. I would enjoy very much a conversation about the banishment, what rick said, why carol chose to act the way she did in "indifference" and of course what happened between lizzie and mika. But this show never seems to go deep with any of the relationships on the show, even between family members and canon couples, so I doubt we'll see them have some deep conversation about any of the above. Rick has said that he was wrong in his handling the situation with Karen and David, and I think the dynamics between rick and carol in season five (plus that cute moment between them in the S6 premier) went a long way to establish the trust between the two, even if its trust with a different kind of relationship. And unpopular opinion but I dont think its that big of a deal that rick didnt continue looking for carol. I would have preferred that he did, of course, especially if he knew that she was hurt, but he left believing that his old friend, mr life-is-precious would do right by him, and continue his search for carol and that he was needed elsewhere. Plus the episode went out of its way to establish that rick cared for carol - when you sum up all of season 5 and 6 he's probably been the most consistent in that regard. Him leaving was total plot device to make the intro of the kingdom happen.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Jan 2, 2017 17:39:12 GMT -5
Meggo358 I agree, Rick not continuing to look for Carol made sense to me even though the entire set up leading to the finale was bullshit. I've complained about how all the strong fighters decided to leave the ASZ unprotected, and here's their leader making a wise decision to go back. I can't fault him for that, especially like you said he left behind the Ninja Turtle to continue the search.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 2, 2017 17:42:10 GMT -5
Many good points here by everyone regarding the changes in the Rick-Carol relationship. For me, I would personally love to have Rick acknowledge to her that Carol often heps him midcourse correct as she did when she pointed out after the Pete fight that he can't have both in the situation with Jessie and ASZ. Sexual Chocolate and Meggo358 make good points that the show often skims the surface of things and relatonships as well as the point that characters move on fast and do no revist things well or often. Just the absence of grief on the show is a great example of that. The lack of consistent writing is also an issue as v pointed out- the getting of Person A to point M in time for the next episode often leaves things choppy as does the separation of the group in season 6, in which they were "together" in the ASZ but not connected as they had previously been. Everyone was busy with their own personal changes and so not united as they audience prefers to see them. I am pleased that Rick regards Carol as an equal and someone with whom he can share counsel and plans as needed, although Michonne will likely be in that role given the Richonne relationship and Carol's presence at The Kingdom.
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Rosie
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Post by Rosie on Jan 2, 2017 17:50:35 GMT -5
off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked. OMG! Me too! Rick told Morgan Carol was a force of nature and he was proud of her. He said she did the right thing regarding Kravid - he acknowledged Carol did that to protect the rest of the family. IMO - the air is cleared and has been since Terminus.
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Post by v on Jan 2, 2017 18:46:47 GMT -5
off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked. OMG! Me too! Rick told Morgan Carol was a force of nature and he was proud of her. He said she did the right thing regarding Kravid - he acknowledged Carol did that to protect the rest of the family. IMO - the air is cleared and has been since Terminus. I've argued this point with some carol fans that loathe Rick many times. My biggest issue is the writing. As Meggo358 Ripley and Sexual Chocolate the point a to point b way that Gimple writes is an issue more than anything. It's why I gave the examples in my original post. the inconsistency in the writing gives me whip lash. I figure they are saving the "talk" that I want to see between Carol and Rick for sometime next season, because that makes since...
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Post by booksrbetter on Jan 2, 2017 19:30:59 GMT -5
Rick leaving Morgan to hunt for Carol doesn't sit right with me. He knew she was bleeding and might be dying. Carol had washed his dirty sheriff pants and ironed them at their first meeting. He managed to lose her daughter in the woods when he left her to kill two walkers. They were good friends for a long time. He banished her without waiting to talk it over with Hershel, Dr. S, Glenn, Daryl, or anyone else.
Then after they reunited and he properly thanked her for helping them escape he goes after her but turns back before he found her. It wasn't Morgan's job to rescue/recover Carol. It was Rick's.
And to add to the insult? No one in Alexandria or Hilltop has uttered either Carol or Morgan's name. Carol has been with Rick and Carl since the quarry. With Maggie since the farm. With Sasha since the prison. Now they've reunited with Daryl and still not one time has anyone mentioned Carol. If we get a mention in 7-9? No wonder Carol wandered off on her own. I think Gimple and his writing team have deserved all the criticism that the reviewers and fans have heaped on them.
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Post by merelei on Jan 2, 2017 22:10:35 GMT -5
... off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked. I JUST CHOKED. OMG I'm so sorry, I'll see if I can take a decent picture, that thing is at least two years old at this point. (Sunny, the guinea pig on my head, was a very dear little sweetheart and I miss her.)
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Post by Ripley on Jan 2, 2017 23:23:18 GMT -5
... off topic: merelei It wasn't til this thread that I realized your hair has eyes. Up until now, I thought you had a blonde mohawk. Dear me, I need to get my eyes checked. I JUST CHOKED. OMG I'm so sorry, I'll see if I can take a decent picture, that thing is at least two years old at this point. (Sunny, the guinea pig on my head, was a very dear little sweetheart and I miss her.) I confess I did too merelei - she looks like a sweet guinea pig and I am sure you had much fun with and love from her. Fur babies come in a shapes and sizes.
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