|
Post by sanjamac on May 13, 2016 18:11:47 GMT -5
"Many people found Carol’s change of heart about the killing to be out of character, but really she just couldn’t maintain that hard shell any longer. There’s a an analogy about stone cutting that when you tap on the stone eventually there’s a tap that will be the one that makes it break cleanly. If you try to pound the stone, it will crush. All the violence that Carol had been forced to witness and perform just kept tapping away at her soul. They had that time to breathe after the herd. Time to contemplate. As she tried to do something as simple as gather nuts to bake, she got blood everywhere because she had to kill a walker to accomplish that small task. Little taps like that broke her completely." Morgan saved Carol’s life. Now maybe he can help her to start protecting herself the way she protected everyone else. Her life and emotional well-being is as important as anyone else’s in the group. Her life is precious. — May, 2016 - Undeadwalking
|
|
|
Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 13, 2016 20:32:42 GMT -5
Ugh! I don't want him anywhere near her.
|
|
|
Post by Mia on May 13, 2016 21:02:44 GMT -5
Ugh! I don't want him anywhere near her. Yep he needs to stay far away from her.
|
|
|
Post by v on May 14, 2016 2:31:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by spectre on May 14, 2016 3:21:30 GMT -5
I liked the analogy, and OMG, lmao at your Avatar
|
|
|
Post by v on May 14, 2016 3:23:42 GMT -5
I liked the analogy, and OMG, lmao at your Avatar LOL thanks! I'm pretty fond of that avi myself I'm also really really fond of Rick in the brown t-shirt
|
|
|
Post by reckon on May 14, 2016 16:52:03 GMT -5
I personally didn't buy Carol's breakdown at this point in the story. (If others did, that's fine, too.) If the death of Sophia, her only child, didn't break Carol, I can't see her breaking down over a bunch of villains who were trying to kill her loved ones. Maybe I could see a Carol breakdown after The Grove, but she had it together for the Wolves invasion in JSS. She broke down on the steps after looking at Mrs. Neudermeyer's body, who was killed by the Wolves, not after looking at the Wolves. That makes me think she would want to do more to protect others, not less. And if she left because she can't kill anyone, why did the writers have her sew a sub-machine gun in her coat sleeve?
|
|
|
Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 14, 2016 17:00:14 GMT -5
I personally didn't buy Carol's breakdown at this point in the story. (If others did, that's fine, too.) If the death of Sophia, her only child, didn't break Carol, I can't see her breaking down over a bunch of villains who were trying to kill her loved ones. Maybe I could see a Carol breakdown after The Grove, but she had it together for the Wolves invasion in JSS. She broke down on the steps after looking at Mrs. Neudermeyer's body, who was killed by the Wolves, not after looking at the Wolves. That makes me think she would want to do more to protect others, not less. And if she left because she can't kill anyone, why did the writers have her sew a sub-machine gun in her coat sleeve? Quoted for truth. I have never been more disappointed and unexcited about a storyline involving Carol than I am with this one, and that's saying a lot because I still shake my head at the whole Kavid thing. Maybe it's a good thing my expectations are so low for her in season 7, because then Gimple can surprise me. Maybe instead of the diarrhea we got in 6, 7 will just give us irritable bowels. A girl can dream.
|
|
|
Post by Mia on May 14, 2016 17:18:04 GMT -5
I personally didn't buy Carol's breakdown at this point in the story. (If others did, that's fine, too.) If the death of Sophia, her only child, didn't break Carol, I can't see her breaking down over a bunch of villains who were trying to kill her loved ones. Maybe I could see a Carol breakdown after The Grove, but she had it together for the Wolves invasion in JSS. She broke down on the steps after looking at Mrs. Neudermeyer's body, who was killed by the Wolves, not after looking at the Wolves. That makes me think she would want to do more to protect others, not less. And if she left because she can't kill anyone, why did the writers have her sew a sub-machine gun in her coat sleeve? Yes to this.
|
|
|
Post by MorganBGone on May 14, 2016 17:55:13 GMT -5
I might have more enthusiasm for this story (1) were I convinced that Carol didn't break down in the way she did and for the reason she did in service of Morgan's story and whatever contrived fan fiction SG had dreamed up for his muses and (2) had it not necessitated Carol's being isolated from those she was actually closest to, preventing them from reinforcing her value, which IMO was a disservice to her history and their characters. Why exactly does Morgan value her so much? Oh right... we weren't told or shown. Instead, we were given mystical seeing and understanding... I guess... while Morgan actually reinforced Carol's breakdown -- in canon -- by making her feel worse about killing, punctuating that by slamming her into a floor in service of his belief. That the story had her justifying that action and concealing what he did was vile, IMO. That last thing I want is to see the very character who supported Carol's worsening self-doubt being treated as the superior being who will show her a better way... because he, all-knowing Carol expert that he is, knew what she needed when she didn't. Making this story all the worse is his obtaining information we were shown in canon she didn't want shared as she made it clear she wanted nothing to do with him. I guess Carol, with all her damage, couldn't even decide for herself not to have someone who slammed her into cement and endangered the community in her life. Again, Morgan just understood and knew best. Who cares about her agency in all of this anyway? There's no claim to equality, either, because Carol, in "learning" from Morgan, broke down progressively more, while he, in learning from her, got to play hero in the context of that breakdown.
This story is utterly contrived trash and comes at the expense, IMO, of Carol's preexisting development, and I'm not inclined to drink the Gimple Koolaid in seeing it otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by reckon on May 14, 2016 20:14:34 GMT -5
I might have more enthusiasm for this story (1) were I convinced that Carol didn't break down in the way she did and for the reason she did in service of Morgan's story and whatever contrived fan fiction SG had dreamed up for his muses and (2) had it not necessitated Carol's being isolated from those she was actually closest to, preventing them from reinforcing her value, which IMO was a disservice to her history and their characters. Why exactly does Morgan value her so much? Oh right... we weren't told or shown. Instead, we were given mystical seeing and understanding... I guess... while Morgan actually reinforced Carol's breakdown -- in canon -- by making her feel worse about killing, punctuating that by slamming her into a floor in service of his belief. That the story had her justifying that action and concealing what he did was vile, IMO. That last thing I want is to see the very character who supported Carol's worsening self-doubt being treated as the superior being who will show her a better way... because he, all-knowing Carol expert that he is, knew what she needed when she didn't. Making this story all the worse is his obtaining information we were shown in canon she didn't want shared as she made it clear she wanted nothing to do with him. I guess Carol, with all her damage, couldn't even decide for herself not to have someone who slammed her into cement and endangered the community in her life. Again, Morgan just understood and knew best. Who cares about her agency in all of this anyway? There's no claim to equality, either, because Carol, in "learning" from Morgan, broke down progressively more, while he, in learning from her, got to play hero in the context of that breakdown. This story is utterly contrived trash and comes at the expense, IMO, of Carol's preexisting development, and I'm not inclined to drink the Gimple Koolaid in seeing it otherwise. Thank you so much for this post. I'm even angrier, now that I think about it. SG has two world-class actors in MMB and LJ, and this is what he comes up with?? Why not have Morgan talk to Rick, the dude he just walked hundreds of miles to find? Why not have Carol and Michonne talk about losing their children. Can you imagine those two actresses together in a scene, with that subject matter? Pure. Gold. But nope, we get dumpstergate and Carol abuse. Not only insulting to the GA, but to DV victims everywhere.
The Carol/Morgan "story arc":
|
|
|
Post by MorganBGone on May 14, 2016 20:52:53 GMT -5
reckon, the lost opportunity where Carol / Michonne is concerned is greater even than their not bonding over lost children -- an area in which Morgan might even more reasonably have bonded with Michonne, given that the loss of their children was in both cases something that they could feel some responsibility for and that both had breakdowns in the aftermath of, Morgan after not killing his walker wife and Michonne after leaving her son with his clearly at that point not very high functioning father. (I'm not saying that Michonne was to blame for Andre's death, just that the circumstances overall in terms of the deaths and their aftermath was more similar for Michonne and Morgan than for Carol and Morgan or Michonne.) The biggest lost opportunity relates to their both having killed one child to save another -- something not even touched on in Michonne's case and something that remains a secret in Carol's. Instead of having the two rationally connect over a shared circumstance, we'll probably continue to get nothing storywise for Michonne (because she's just Rick's helpmeet now) and have Carol's revelation about Lizzie come with a relative stranger, detracting from its emotional impact. Morgan's understanding and reassuring Carol in relation to Lizzie, IMO, would only contribute to the absurdly forced nature of the Carol/Morgan story, so I desperately hope the story doesn't go in that direction (but have no faith in that in light of the list connection). In what universe, after all, would it actually make sense for Morgan of all people to be on board with killing a mentally ill child, even one who might kill others? His supporting that as the right course of action would be akin to his believing Rick would have made the right decision in killing Morgan himself, who did in fact go on to kill others before, as a total stroke of contrivance luck, finding a needle in a haystack shrink in the woods. *fingers crossed* that Carol left her list behind, rather than carrying it with her, bound to be found by Morgan.
|
|
|
Post by v on May 14, 2016 21:50:35 GMT -5
I personally didn't buy Carol's breakdown at this point in the story. (If others did, that's fine, too.) If the death of Sophia, her only child, didn't break Carol, I can't see her breaking down over a bunch of villains who were trying to kill her loved ones. Maybe I could see a Carol breakdown after The Grove, but she had it together for the Wolves invasion in JSS. She broke down on the steps after looking at Mrs. Neudermeyer's body, who was killed by the Wolves, not after looking at the Wolves. That makes me think she would want to do more to protect others, not less. And if she left because she can't kill anyone, why did the writers have her sew a sub-machine gun in her coat sleeve? you want LOGIC??? on this show??? with this show runner??? silly girl... Logic is for... well... not for the current folks running it.
|
|
|
Post by v on May 14, 2016 21:52:58 GMT -5
I might have more enthusiasm for this story (1) were I convinced that Carol didn't break down in the way she did and for the reason she did in service of Morgan's story and whatever contrived fan fiction SG had dreamed up for his muses and (2) had it not necessitated Carol's being isolated from those she was actually closest to, preventing them from reinforcing her value, which IMO was a disservice to her history and their characters. Why exactly does Morgan value her so much? Oh right... we weren't told or shown. Instead, we were given mystical seeing and understanding... I guess... while Morgan actually reinforced Carol's breakdown -- in canon -- by making her feel worse about killing, punctuating that by slamming her into a floor in service of his belief. That the story had her justifying that action and concealing what he did was vile, IMO. That last thing I want is to see the very character who supported Carol's worsening self-doubt being treated as the superior being who will show her a better way... because he, all-knowing Carol expert that he is, knew what she needed when she didn't. Making this story all the worse is his obtaining information we were shown in canon she didn't want shared as she made it clear she wanted nothing to do with him. I guess Carol, with all her damage, couldn't even decide for herself not to have someone who slammed her into cement and endangered the community in her life. Again, Morgan just understood and knew best. Who cares about her agency in all of this anyway? There's no claim to equality, either, because Carol, in "learning" from Morgan, broke down progressively more, while he, in learning from her, got to play hero in the context of that breakdown. This story is utterly contrived trash and comes at the expense, IMO, of Carol's preexisting development, and I'm not inclined to drink the Gimple Koolaid in seeing it otherwise. one of the things I love is many of the emmy converstaions going on are saying "Carol's story was bollocks but MMB is so damn good we'll overlook how f'ed up the storyline is."
|
|
|
Post by Mia on May 15, 2016 0:51:49 GMT -5
What I want to know is who told Morgan about Carol killing Kavid. And about her banishment. It was all so weird that he knew this. It to me seemed like he is kind of obsessed with her.
|
|
|
Post by Starlight on May 15, 2016 7:20:20 GMT -5
Screw Dickstick and Scott Gimple's hard on for the character. I have no interest in seeing Carol being further screwed over. so Dickstick can have something to do
|
|
|
Post by reckon on May 15, 2016 8:07:39 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger."
Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3
|
|
Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
Posts: 1,749
|
Post by Meggo358 on May 15, 2016 9:11:33 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger." Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. (There were a few good things - Gleggie being pregnant, Richonne, anything Eugene.) Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3 What I don't understand is why the show positioned all its promotions around a Rick and Morgan storyline this time last season. I understand wanting to not give alway what will happen in a season, but why be completely misleading with zero explanation. It's not a misdirect with a purpose - it's just lying to the audience.
|
|
|
Post by MorganBGone on May 15, 2016 9:12:15 GMT -5
reckon, I don't know that I'd use "negativity" so much as "honesty". What was on our screens was minimally positive, especially for Carol, and we don't, unfortunately, have much cause for optimism when she's now quite literally, rather than figuratively, isolated with a character many of us view as being unnaturally foisted on her story in the first place, with his forced addition's having had a negative impact on it. That LJ and mmb, IMO, don't even share much, if any, on screen chemistry, regardless of talent, just makes it that much worse.
|
|
|
Post by Mia on May 15, 2016 9:31:18 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger." Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. (There were a few good things - Gleggie being pregnant, Richonne, anything Eugene.) Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3 I agree Morgan and Rick should have had a story together. Rick was to busy with his women to even care what Morgan was doing.
|
|
|
Post by Mia on May 15, 2016 9:34:48 GMT -5
reckon , I don't know that I'd use "negativity" so much as "honesty". What was on our screens was minimally positive, especially for Carol, and we don't, unfortunately, have much cause for optimism when she's now quite literally, rather than figuratively, isolated with a character many of us view as being unnaturally foisted on her story in the first place, with his forced addition's having had a negative impact on it. That LJ and mmb, IMO, don't even share much, if any, on screen chemistry, regardless of talent, just makes it that much worse. Andy and Lennie have a lot of chemistry and play off of each other very well. Lennie and Mel not so much. And that surprises me because Mel has chemistry with everyone. The Rick and Morgan thing just fell to the wayside. And now no one really cares about Morgan. I think Morgan was the type of character that was good just popping up every so often. And he needs to find him a new friend at the Kingdom and leave Carol alone.
|
|
|
Post by reckon on May 15, 2016 15:00:57 GMT -5
Meggo358, I've wondered, for quite some time, why tptb lie to the audience. They call it "misdirecting". Whatever. Does any other show do this? They could talk in vague terms about the upcoming season, or say "We hope fans will enjoy what's ahead.", or even "No comment.". But no, they straight up lie. And everyone who pays attention to the SDCC trailer, interviews, etc., knows now they're inaccurate, so it's even more pointless. @morganbgone and Mia, it's painful for me to admit, but it's true, MMB and LJ have zero screen chemistry. It's either there or it's not, it's not a matter of talent. (Obviously, because both are amazingly talented.) At least that's largely overshadowed by the offensive writing. (Staying positive! (rofl) )
|
|
|
Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 15, 2016 17:05:22 GMT -5
Yes, they have zero chemistry but I'm gonna be honest here, they truly ruined Morgan for me the second he slammed Carol into the earth's core. And miss me with well he saved her in the end. I. DO. NOT. CARE. Morgan as a character is dead to me and there's no coming back from that. Thanks, Gimple.
|
|
|
Post by Starlight on May 15, 2016 17:15:29 GMT -5
Yes, they have zero chemistry but I'm gonna be honest here, they truly ruined Morgan for me the second he slammed Carol into the earth's core. And miss me with well he saved her in the end. I. DO. NOT. CARE. Morgan as a character is dead to me and there's no coming back from that. Thanks, Gimple. This.... I honestly can't wait until the character dies. He has added nothing to the show since his return, other than a story that proved to be completely pointless in the end. A story that ended up screwing up one of the show's best developed characters. And Dickstick is the reason I can't be excited for Carol going into season 7. If Carol was alone or with another character I would probably be fine. but the Dickstick of the ZA is there.
|
|
|
Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 15, 2016 17:21:28 GMT -5
Starlight I don't even bother to speculate what Carol is going to be up to in season 7, because I know her story is going to involve him. No thanks. I'm like show me the tiger and let's move on to see what Rick's group is up to.
|
|
|
Post by v on May 15, 2016 20:18:14 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger." Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. (There were a few good things - Gleggie being pregnant, Richonne, anything Eugene.) Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3 What I don't understand is why the show positioned all its promotions around a Rick and Morgan storyline this time last season. I understand wanting to not give alway what will happen in a season, but why be completely misleading with zero explanation. It's not a misdirect with a purpose - it's just lying to the audience. that has been one of my biggest beefs about the pre season promotion. It was ALL about Rick vs Morgan and they barely had any interaction. It truly was straight up lying. The only thing I can think of is they wanted to go the "safe" route, figuring (like they did with the Rick vs Carol bull shit in season 4) that the audience would be split evenly and it would lead to higher interest in the "moral" differences. BUT much like how 90% of the population backed Carol against Rick, the GA backed Carol for the most part against Morgan. When tptb went on their Anti-Carol press during season 4, all it did was piss off MORE people. They quickly had to back track from that tactic. They pretty much tried to do a "gentler" version of the same anti-carol press with Morgan. The only ones buying it were those that hated Carol in the first place and lets be honest... Carol can never do anything right per those assholes. The show never explained WHY Morgan was so fucking obsessed with Carol and her "redemption" in the first place. Morgan has connections with Rick, Carl and lesser ones with Michonne and Daryl. So why Carol? every one of the first 4 have killed. I was excited for Morgan to return to the show, but really am not there for what they did to him. I get what they were trying to do, but it fell flat due to poor writing. I do disagree that Mel and Lennie have no/will never have good chemistry on screen. I think they could play very well off each other if given a descent story line and not the shit they had in season 6.
|
|
|
Post by reckon on May 16, 2016 11:40:44 GMT -5
It takes a mind boggling level of utter incompetence to have two great, fan fave characters, played by two stunningly talented actors, and only come up with that season 6 clusterfrack for them. SG likely won't listen to critics and fans and cut his losses. He will likely act like a spoiled child (instead of showrunner for a valuable property), and double down on this offensive garbage trying to prove he was "right". He'll put his ego before the show and the characters. I still shake my head at how offensive this writing was to the characters, DV survivors, the GA, anyone with an ounce of human decency, anyone even vaguely familiar with the characters, anyone even vaguely familiar with the concept of logic....
|
|
|
Post by greaterpursuit on May 17, 2016 12:20:24 GMT -5
All this Morgan/Carol story hate is giving me life. Continue.
|
|
|
Post by reckon on Dec 31, 2016 20:10:45 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger."
Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3
|
|
|
Post by v on Dec 31, 2016 20:16:29 GMT -5
@z'ha'dum, the thing is, Morgan and Rick would have plenty to do, and they have a lot of history. I have no idea why SG didn't have Morgan and Rick have a story arc together in S6. "Hey Rick, I just walked hundreds of miles through a ZA to find you. Let's say a few sentences to each other, and then I'll go hound a complete stranger." Sigh. Guys, I'm so sorry for being so negative. I truly want to contribute positively to the forum, make it more enjoyable, if possible. Season 6 was just so bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get. Even worse, it sounds like S7 will be more of the same. Let me grab a quick group hug, and I'll try to be less negative. (((()))) <3 sending you a hug babe
|
|