Kitsune
Woodbury Partygoer
"I will knock you the fuck out if you ever take up smoking." -My friend who's a smoker
Posts: 151
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Post by Kitsune on Apr 30, 2016 18:53:11 GMT -5
Taken from Urban Dictionary, Flanderization is defined as: The process by which a single trait from a character is overstated and brandished to the point that it becomes the character's only trait. Flanderization is almost always for the worst and tends to draw viewers away from the medium that the character represents.
Which characters do you believe fit this bill and why?
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 9:27:09 GMT -5
The only one that stands out that might be under this category in my mind is Daryl. I love Norman and I adore Daryl he remains one of my 3 favorite characters along with Glenn and Michonne but I can't help but be annoyed at how Daryl is written now. He started off so spunky and interesting and if you ever marathon the show on Netflix or something it's unbelievable to see season 1 Daryl descend into season 5 Daryl. It's like they took the part of Daryl that was angry and then turned him into a grunting man child a little bit instead of capitalizing on the growth he showed in s4. I also think the need to turn him into this action terminator type figure almost always just being used to save the day or so the viewers at home can say "What a badass!" complete with biker attire is weird to me. The essence of who Daryl was has been pushed aside. Idk after the Beth fiasco, Scott has never written him the same as he was and it's a bit unrealistic to think Daryl could stab his brother in the face but be ok but Beth dying brought on that much inner turmoil and pain. Anyway just my personal thoughts but I don't think my opinion is in tune to what the definition of this thread called for lol I'm so sorry
Oh and it's also annoying me that Glenn has to be the moral center even when someone like Nicholas is trying to kill him. Like c'mon... we know he's the moral compass but jeez I don't believe s3 Glenn would've put up with that much bullshit.
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Post by webergal on May 1, 2016 14:58:38 GMT -5
The only one that stands out that might be under this category in my mind is Daryl. I love Norman and I adore Daryl he remains one of my 3 favorite characters along with Glenn and Michonne but I can't help but be annoyed at how Daryl is written now. He started off so spunky and interesting and if you ever marathon the show on Netflix or something it's unbelievable to see season 1 Daryl descend into season 5 Daryl. It's like they took the part of Daryl that was angry and then turned him into a grunting man child a little bit instead of capitalizing on the growth he showed in s4. I also think the need to turn him into this action terminator type figure almost always just being used to save the day or so the viewers at home can say "What a badass!" complete with biker attire is weird to me. The essence of who Daryl was has been pushed aside. Idk after the Beth fiasco, Scott has never written him the same as he was and it's a bit unrealistic to think Daryl could stab his brother in the face but be ok but Beth dying brought on that much inner turmoil and pain. Anyway just my personal thoughts but I don't think my opinion is in tune to what the definition of his thread called for lol I'm so sorry Oh and it's also annoying me that Glenn has to be the moral center even when someone like Nicholas is trying to kill him. Like c'mon... we know he's the moral compass but jeez I don't believe s3 Glenn would've put up with that much bullshit. I'll jump on your bandwagon comments regarding Daryl. I agree with you 100%. Daryl is one of my top favorites and it's like they want to make him into a live action figure. I hated those episodes with the Beth fiasco. I wished they hadn't paired those two up after the prison fell. The only good scene, IMO, was when they were playing that dumb drinking game and Daryl yelled at Beth on her entitled life comments treating Daryl like he was a nobody criminal. Beth hardly interacted with Daryl when they were at Hershel's farm yet she came to the conclusion that he was a worthless piece of crap she got stuck with escaping from the prison. The next best scene was when Rick finally told Daryl he was his brother, after the Claimers tried to kill Rick, Michonne and Carl. But has Rick treated Daryl like a brother since then? Wouldn't his brother be his right hand man? Yes, IMO, this thread title "Flanderization" fits how the show treats Daryl Dixon.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 1, 2016 15:40:32 GMT -5
Daryl. They took a wonderfully written and well-acted character from season 1 and 2, and turned him into a parody of himself. For all the shit I now give Daryl, and to a larger extent Norman's acting, I would have internet fought you if you said a bad word about either in the earlier seasons. Things that made Daryl/Norman ones to watch are largely gone, and that's a damn shame.
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Post by Ripley on May 1, 2016 16:24:21 GMT -5
I agree that Daryl is the poster child example of flanderization, but also feel the Glenn character is affected. S 1 Glenn was smart with his skills respected and admired by Rick, Daryl and everyone else at Camp Dinner Bell. Up until Judith's birth, he was the group's expert in making runs. After the kidnapping by Merle thought, Glenn has been just another person making runs with others. The Big Spot, Sasha led the mission which was supposed to be character development for her. That's fine but it didn't have to come at Glenn's expense either.
Since Glenn and Maggie met, Glenn has been relegated increasingly to being just one half of Gleggie; Maggie now has her political leadership storyline so she at least gets something outside the relationship. Glenn only gets " nice trusting moral Maggie husband with constant near-death escapes ". So what happened to smart , resourceful , respected Glenn? Sure he didn't get the same close relationship with Rick, as they had in the comic, but it has baffled and infuriated legions of Glenn fans that he is allowed in the background of many scenes , but seems to matter to TPTB only as Mr Moral Maggie. I'd kill Maggie off in a heartbeat if it would guarantee Glenn better story. I believe it is too late now though.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 1, 2016 16:40:28 GMT -5
Michonne used to be angry and interesting. Then she got in touch with her maternal side and she has lost her edge. The closer she becomes to the Grimes family the less interesting she becomes. She has become the perfect helpmate for Rick. Dull, but perfect.
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 17:17:20 GMT -5
Daryl. They took a wonderfully written and well-acted character from season 1 and 2, and turned him into a parody of himself. For all the shit I now give Daryl, and to a larger extent Norman's acting, I would have internet fought you if you said a bad word about either in the earlier seasons. Things that made Daryl/Norman ones to watch are largely gone, and that's a damn shame. I can't figure the change of acting out. He was such an obnoxious asshat in the beginning but the way Norman played him made him likeable. He was so animated and full of spunk. Can you imagine the Daryl now drinking wine while yelling "Booyah!" and just being... fun? That's the word I think of before s5 Daryl hit. I can't figure out if Norman is playing Daryl like the apocalypse has chipped at him and everything they've been through has just worn him down into Mr grunty pants or if all this emo shit that Scott is writing for him is stifling his desire to want to do better? The most Daryl has said in ages was yelling at Glenn, Michonne and Rosita about what Dwight did and even that was lacking spunk and to me it was just emo grunting. I know Norman has said he never wants to leave the show but do you think apart of him is unhappy with how Daryl is being written and he's acting accordingly?
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 17:21:51 GMT -5
Michonne used to be angry and interesting. Then she got in touch with her maternal side and she has lost her edge. The closer she becomes to the Grimes family the less interesting she becomes. She has become the perfect helpmate for Rick. Dull, but perfect. I just feel what made all of the characters likeable and fan favorites has been taken away under Gimple's pen and that truly baffles me because to me if I'm working on a show and I know what the audience responded to best about these characters, then I'm not going to fix what ain't broken lol It's a no brainer... why mess with what made the show and characters so popular?
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 17:32:25 GMT -5
I agree that Daryl is the poster child example of flanderization, but also feel the Glenn character is affected. S 1 Glenn was smart with his skills respected and admired by Rixk, Daryl and everyone else at Camp Dinner Bell. Up until Judith's birth, he was the group's expert in making runs. After the kidnapping by Merle thought, Glenn has been just another person making runs with others. The Big Spot, Sasha led the mission which was supposed to be character development for her. That's fine but it didn't have to come at Glenn's expect se either. Since Glenn and Maggie met, Glenn has been relegated increasingly to being just one half of Gleggie; Maggie now has her political leadership storyline so she at least gets something outside the relationship..Glenn only gets " nice trusting moral Maggie husband with constant near-death escapes ". So what happened to smart , resourceful , respected Glenn? Sure he didn't get the same close relationship with Rick, as they had in the comic, but it has baffled and infuriated legions if Glenn fans that he is allowed in the background of many scenes , but seems to matter to TPTB only as Mr Moral Maggie. I'd kill Maggie off in a heartbeat if it would guarantee Glenn better story. I believe it is too late now though. Preach... I loved Gleggie but those two have had nothing to do really outside their relationship. Everything they're about revolves around each other and it's worn thin. I think Lauren as an actress is fearless the way she just let's her emotions go and willing to truly feel whatever her character is feeling and Steven is incredible as well. It's just a shame the show was lucky enough to get these two wonderful actors and can't write more interesting material for them. As in real life, we don't stop being individual human beings after we fall in love. It's lazy writing that's all this is. If Glenn is the one that was killed it's going to make me even more nauseous because he hasn’t been treated fairly at all and I'm not just saying that because he's one of my faves
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 1, 2016 17:39:26 GMT -5
lesmicelli I think Norman is phoning it in and I don't think it can be blamed solely on the piss poor writing, because everyone is getting piss poor writing. I think to some degree Norman drank the same kool-aid as Gimple, et al. and gladly jumped into the Daryl hype. Now maybe he wishes he hadn't.
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 17:52:47 GMT -5
The only one that stands out that might be under this category in my mind is Daryl. I love Norman and I adore Daryl he remains one of my 3 favorite characters along with Glenn and Michonne but I can't help but be annoyed at how Daryl is written now. He started off so spunky and interesting and if you ever marathon the show on Netflix or something it's unbelievable to see season 1 Daryl descend into season 5 Daryl. It's like they took the part of Daryl that was angry and then turned him into a grunting man child a little bit instead of capitalizing on the growth he showed in s4. I also think the need to turn him into this action terminator type figure almost always just being used to save the day or so the viewers at home can say "What a badass!" complete with biker attire is weird to me. The essence of who Daryl was has been pushed aside. Idk after the Beth fiasco, Scott has never written him the same as he was and it's a bit unrealistic to think Daryl could stab his brother in the face but be ok but Beth dying brought on that much inner turmoil and pain. Anyway just my personal thoughts but I don't think my opinion is in tune to what the definition of his thread called for lol I'm so sorry Oh and it's also annoying me that Glenn has to be the moral center even when someone like Nicholas is trying to kill him. Like c'mon... we know he's the moral compass but jeez I don't believe s3 Glenn would've put up with that much bullshit. I'll jump on your bandwagon comments regarding Daryl. I agree with you 100%. Daryl is one of my top favorites and it's like they want to make him into a live action figure. I hated those episodes with the Beth fiasco. I wished they hadn't paired those two up after the prison fell. The only good scene, IMO, was when they were playing that dumb drinking game and Daryl yelled at Beth on her entitled life comments treating Daryl like he was a nobody criminal. Beth hardly interacted with Daryl when they were at Hershel's farm yet she came to the conclusion that he was a worthless piece of crap she got stuck with escaping from the prison. The next best scene was when Rick finally told Daryl he was his brother, after the Claimers tried to kill Rick, Michonne and Carl. But has Rick treated Daryl like a brother since then? Wouldn't his brother be his right hand man? Yes, IMO, this thread title "Flanderization" fits how the show treats Daryl Dixon. I think the idea of the 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid' type sl with Daryl and Rick in The Next world was supposed to show that they're still brothers but not only was that after ages being apart, the supposedly funny parts came at the expense of their intelligence imo. While I loved seeing them sharing screen time again I couldn't fully enjoy it because once again they were forced to do stuff that's uncharacteristic just to fit the plot and instead of being funny most of it made me roll my eyes lmao I'm so hard to please I know but some of the stuff they did was just plain dumb smh I really enjoy Norman and Andy's chemistry though so I still ended up liking it because I like them, if that makes sense? As for that Beth mess, what was the deal of them sharing like one scene before they got stuck together, then have them stay mute for a lot of the time just to have her get annoyed at him, then he gets mad at her then they share a semi hug some moonshine, a heart to heart and aaaall of that made her exclaim "You're gonna miss me so bad when I'm gone Daryl Dixon" uh, say what? What happened for that to be even written to come out of her mouth? Then the following descent into emo'ville for Daryl after she dies was all too much for me
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Post by lesmicelli on May 1, 2016 18:06:03 GMT -5
lesmicelli I think Norman is phoning it in and I don't think it can be blamed solely on the piss poor writing, because everyone is getting piss poor writing. I think to some degree Norman drank the same kool-aid as Gimple, et al. and gladly jumped into the Daryl hype. Now maybe he wishes he hadn't. Hmmm, I don't disagree with some of this tbh I think Norman did jump into the Daryl hype a bit and is probably now regretting it. I don't think it's too late to turn things around though but AMC or even possibly Norman is going to have to speak up. I don't think it's too late for any of the characters under a different, fair and talented showrunner. I think a better showrunner would've headed Daryl into a better direction. Even having a chat with Norman and saying "You need to bring your A game back" and I do put most of the blame on Scott because Norman really hasn't been given any words to speak. What's being given to him is material that allows him to be the silent and brooding, emo looking and grunting shell of Daryl. If he gets better material and Norman is still acting that way then I'll have to say it's Norman not trying. I won't get to see if things change but I truly hope they do
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Post by nana on May 1, 2016 18:40:01 GMT -5
Each season I say and hope they will fix Daryl... this season is no different. But I think in someways the ZA has worn him down and he changed after they left the prison. He hasn't been the same since then. Hopefully that is what they are trying to show. He had some spunk resurrected with Denise....those two handed it back and forth with each other in a way that was reminiscent of season 2 Daryl. Just give the guy some scenes with conversation. Good lord, Gimple, the guy can talk. Remember "observant"?
I think they broke the Gleggie mold somewhat in 7b. Maggie had The Same Boat and she took on Gregory. Glenn had more of a story away form Maggie.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 1, 2016 19:14:55 GMT -5
Carol has been in pain most of the seasons. Brutalized by Ed, then traumatized by the loss of Sophia. She showed her spunk in season two and three, but her role since then has been suffering with brief episodes of her defending herself. Let Carol be happy for a change and let Daryl be the guy who brought her flowers in a beer bottle. Let Michonne be a warrior once in a while.
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Post by nana on May 1, 2016 19:20:40 GMT -5
The Carol drama/trauma is getting very old...it was old after season 5... and I fear it won't end in season 7 either. Lordy, I need to see that woman laugh... or just a good and happy smile.
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Post by v on May 1, 2016 19:30:59 GMT -5
Daryl is my first thought. Several here know how much his arc for the last few seasons ( plus fandom wank) have turned me off the character to the point he isn't even in my top 10 favorite characters any more. I started noticing it in 3b and it only got worse from there. Between the normanfication of the character, the poor writing, recycled story lines, "phoned in" acting and the actor buying to deeply into his hype they could lucille Daryl and it really wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the show.
Glenn has been sorely neglected and as Ripley said, many of the traits that made him ( as well as Daryl) have been buried or lost. I will defend Glenn to the bitter end but I get why some find the character boring now or only view him as an extention of Gleggie. 99% of his story since season 4 has been being seperated from Maggie.
Carol- I fucking LOVE Carol, I really really do but her character has been reduced to an unending cycle of pain and angst. It physically hurts to watch her.
Rick- I am one of those rare Carol fans that loves Rick but damn... His character has been reduced ( for the most part) to trips on the cray cray train, making speeches, and making bad calls.
When I say the show has gone down hill since SG took over, things like I mentioned above are a large part of it. the rest is for a different thread.
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Post by nana on May 1, 2016 19:36:30 GMT -5
I wonder sometimes if Gimple really knows these characters. Did he pay attention to who they were the first two seasons?
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Post by candi18z on May 10, 2016 4:35:56 GMT -5
I agree that Daryl is the poster child example of flanderization, but also feel the Glenn character is affected. S 1 Glenn was smart with his skills respected and admired by Rick, Daryl and everyone else at Camp Dinner Bell. Up until Judith's birth, he was the group's expert in making runs. After the kidnapping by Merle thought, Glenn has been just another person making runs with others. The Big Spot, Sasha led the mission which was supposed to be character development for her. That's fine but it didn't have to come at Glenn's expend either. Since Glenn and Maggie met, Glenn has been relegated increasingly to being just one half of Gleggie; Maggie now has her political leadership storyline so she at least gets something outside the relationship..Glenn only gets " nice trusting moral Maggie husband with constant near-death escapes ". So what happened to smart , resourceful , respected Glenn? Sure he didn't get the same close relationship with Rick, as they had in the comic, but it has baffled and infuriated legions of Glenn fans that he is allowed in the background of many scenes , but seems to matter to TPTB only as Mr Moral Maggie. I'd kill Maggie off in a heartbeat if it would guarantee Glenn better story. I believe it is too late now though. I agree 100% about Gleggie. Gleggie is an example of what happens when you put two characters together too fast into a pairing. The characters lose their identity and become a unit. Glenn's storylines are all about Maggie, and all of the things that made Glenn who he is as a character seems to have been lost. Maggie hasn't had much development as a character as well due to the rush for Gleggie, but in season 6 Maggie had some growth while Glenn had nothing but Dumpstergate and babysitting Enid. As for Flanderization, Daryl is the character that is an example of flanderization. Daryl is the middle aged emo bad boy that never grows or changes no matter what happens to him.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 10, 2016 13:13:32 GMT -5
The Flanderization of Daryl was complete in season 4, episode 1 when at the prison the good citizens of Woodbury treated him like a rockstar, and tptb admitted it was a play on how fans treat Norman. Yep, they thought it was a fun/cool idea and went with it.
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Post by Ripley on May 10, 2016 19:42:09 GMT -5
Glenn and Maggie could be well written whether written together or apart IMO- not all fictional couples are glued at the hip as they are, even in young love. It usually passes after the honeymoon glow wears off in real life. I think giving Daryl so many incredible stunts and miraculous walker kills also helps build the Daryl myth. The grenading kill of the tank, the whipping the spine of out the walker, leaping on the beer cases at the Big Spot etc all seem to me to be part of that trend, although I could be wrong. As a viewer, I experienced those as moments which took me out of the story completely and came off as "oh, they are giving Daryl another heroic moment" instead of the "wow, look at Daryl go!" response most viewers probably had- shrugs. Had someone other than Daryl- someone unexpected tossed the grenade into the tank, it would have delighted me I think. Unusual walker kills from earlier seasons tend to be forgotten in later seasons which seems a shame- the chair arm walker kill in Woodbury, the stamping on the walker heads after the Woodbury escape, Andrea's walkers in the trees etc. I don't blame Norman Reedus for those- after all, the man has to do what the scripts call for on the show. I do think the writers used those stunts and kills to build up Daryl when he needed no further build-up to be the hero IMO. I'll see myself out now before Sexual Chocolate has to infract me
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 10, 2016 21:07:21 GMT -5
Ripley Complaining about the flanderization of what used to be one of the best characters on the show..
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Post by dark sister on May 10, 2016 21:24:32 GMT -5
Daryl. They took away a lot of his interesting nuances and replaced them with Norman!cash cow!super Daryl! It's frustrating.
That's the only character I can think of permanently being Flanderized. Others have overstated traits that fit their story that they eventually grow out of (Sasha's PTSD, and hopefully Carol's S6 story)
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Post by greaterpursuit on May 11, 2016 14:58:38 GMT -5
Michonne used to be angry and interesting. Then she got in touch with her maternal side and she has lost her edge. The closer she becomes to the Grimes family the less interesting she becomes. She has become the perfect helpmate for Rick. Dull, but perfect. I just feel what made all of the characters likeable and fan favorites has been taken away under Gimple's pen and that truly baffles me because to me if I'm working on a show and I know what the audience responded to best about these characters, then I'm not going to fix what ain't broken lol It's a no brainer... why mess with what made the show and characters so popular? I feel like, under Gimple, I don't really know who these characters are anymore. Prior to Season 4, I felt I knew who they are were and what made them tick. It's one of the things I enjoyed most about the show. Since Gimple took the reigns, it's been a non-stop exercise in OOC writing for most of them.
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Post by MorganBGone on May 11, 2016 15:23:34 GMT -5
I'm going to throw the Carol playacting into this mix because it's something SG has already overdone and that I'm already finding tiresome. I don't really need to see people underestimate Carol, let alone in the context of her deliberately playing a part, and I certainly don't need -- or want -- to see that happen 3 times in a single season. Unfortunately, that her power of deception has been cited as one of her greatest strengths by people on the show suggests that this particular trait/plot device is bound to become a repeatedly lucilled deader than dead horse... if it doesn't already qualify already.
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Kitsune
Woodbury Partygoer
"I will knock you the fuck out if you ever take up smoking." -My friend who's a smoker
Posts: 151
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Post by Kitsune on May 11, 2016 16:59:41 GMT -5
Daryl was best portrayed as a redneck asshole with a heart of gold. I don't like how they turned him into a comic book superhero type of character. Though his personality in 6B reminded me of the old Daryl in a way and I enjoyed it. Joe brought out the best in him, though. Goddamn, I wish we could see Daryl hallucinate about seeing Joe or Merle. I just feel what made all of the characters likeable and fan favorites has been taken away under Gimple's pen and that truly baffles me because to me if I'm working on a show and I know what the audience responded to best about these characters, then I'm not going to fix what ain't broken lol It's a no brainer... why mess with what made the show and characters so popular? I feel like, under Gimple, I don't really know who these characters are anymore. Prior to Season 4, I felt I knew who they are were and what made them tick. It's one of the things I enjoyed most about the show. Since Gimple took the reigns, it's been a non-stop exercise in OOC writing for most of them. As much as I hate to admit it: I agree with what you said about not knowing who these characters are anymore.
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Post by webergal on May 11, 2016 21:21:50 GMT -5
Yes, I am sick to death of what they have done with Carol !!
Did it ever occur to them that perhaps Carol is sick of having to kill for her friends because none of them seem to be able to stand up for themselves. It's great when she's baking cookies, or pies or cakes for them, but when it comes to protecting their own butts, they hide and let Carol do the dirty work.
And worse that nobody but Morgan has even notice the change in Carol.
Speaking of Morgan, he was a guy I loved and couldn't wait to see him on the show again. So what did they do? They turned him into an idiot standing around waving his rod as people in Alexandria were getting chopped to pieces and he's telling the enemy to get out of there because all lives are precious. Don't even get me started on Morgan. :-X
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Meggo358
Retired Moderator
Aspiring Furiosa
Posts: 1,749
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Post by Meggo358 on May 11, 2016 21:48:37 GMT -5
webergal I couldnt agree more with everything you said. To be fair, team family would pull their weight if they were around, but this season they were all conveniently preoccupied in order to fail to see her massive emotional downward spiral. As for morgan? Well, I would add to your statement but why mess with perfection?
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on May 11, 2016 22:05:16 GMT -5
Meggo358 And they had perfection with Morgan who I fell in love with during Days Gone Bye. A man who loved his wife so much he couldn't put down the walker version of her. And now he's been reduced to a fcuking teenage ninja turtle, who when not slamming women into the earth's core, stalks them all over god's green earth.
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