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Post by Ripley on Nov 5, 2015 23:02:54 GMT -5
This article addressed Morgan, Morgan and Carol and Morgan and Rick a bit. "...After seeing how Morgan arrived at those codes in episode four’s “Here’s Not Here” I no longer believe that this season is about Rick vs. Morgan. I’m not sure I ever fell for that particular narrative to begin with but it’s already apparent that Rick and Morgan don’t agree, but that Morgan feels he can make Rick see reason. And while we’re only four episodes in and I couldn’t even begin to tell you what the overarching theme of this season is, I can with confidence say that this isn’t about Rick vs. Morgan. Ideally nobody would be in opposition but Morgan has posited a worldview that is almost impossible given everything that our group has had to overcome. And that’s why this season is not about Rick vs. Morgan. Morgan already knows Rick can stop, he even has more of a reason to when it comes to Carl and Judith. Rick and Morgan are on the same side. Things might be restarting like they discussed in “First Time Again” but they do know each other and they do trust each other. Rick even sent Morgan back to Alexandria before the horn to update them and, while I believe it was Carol Rick was trusting with with handling the Wolves in Alexandria, he knew Morgan was there too and he knew they just had to stay their course. This season was never Rick vs. Morgan. It’s Carol vs. Morgan. And not just because the two have opposing ideas about how to handle people in the zombie apocalypse. t’s Carol vs. Morgan based on their own personal struggle with PTSD. Now clearly everyone has it. And with good reason. And everyone is going to handle it differently. Eastman says, “But they can heal. Some more some less, but they can, we all can.” “BUT THEY CAN HEAL. SOME MORE SOME LESS, BUT THEY CAN, WE ALL CAN.” So it’s just a matter of beginning that healing process. I’m not even sure if it can be categorized as post-traumatic stress since they’re all technically still very much in it. We saw Sasha deal with it last season, we see Father Gabriel still trying to find a way out of it and find forgiveness in himself. We see Abraham becoming more unhinged, we’re all dealing with our own PTSD after “Thank You” but most significantly we see Carol, who has used inaction in her undercover persona within Alexandria to distract herself from everything she’s feeling..." link
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Post by v on May 7, 2016 3:42:43 GMT -5
I'm bringing this back due to the way the season ended. As we saw, it was NEVER Rick vs Morgan ( as advertised) but was instead Carol VS Morgan. What was it about Carol specifically that had Morgan dogging her steps? Several characters are suffering from ptsd, and ALL the characters ( except for Glenn prior to the bunker scene) had taken a life to safe their group. While Lennie and Melissa are both amazing actors, much of Morgan's behavior could be classified as stalking, his single minded pursuit of "changing" carol at times felt almost pathological.(IMO) Morgan's line to Rick in East "my way isn't right, but it's right for me" made sense for his character. He finally admitted that his way won't work for everyone, so why Carol?
We also saw Carol crushed under the weight of the things she had done to protect the group. For someone that "Can't KIll" she sure took out a lot of saviors. She did it to protect Maggie and to keep the group on the road from getting to ASZ.
I really wonder how this would have played out if they had been able to do this storyline in 5b like they originally wanted to.
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2016 9:44:49 GMT -5
I'm bringing this back due to the way the season ended. As we saw, it was NEVER Rick vs Morgan ( as advertised) but was instead Carol VS Morgan. What was it about Carol specifically that had Morgan dogging her steps? Several characters are suffering from ptsd, and ALL the characters ( except for Glenn prior to the bunker scene) had taken a life to safe their group. While Lennie and Melissa are both amazing actors, much of Morgan's behavior could be classified as stalking, his single minded pursuit of "changing" carol at times felt almost pathological.(IMO) Morgan's line to Rick in East "my way isn't right, but it's right for me" made sense for his character. He finally admitted that his way won't work for everyone, so why Carol? We also saw Carol crushed under the weight of the things she had done to protect the group. For someone that "Can't KIll" she sure took out a lot of saviors. She did it to protect Maggie and to keep the group on the road from getting to ASZ. I really wonder how this would have played out if they had been able to do this storyline in 5b like they originally wanted to. One thing I'm sure of is that if SG had told Morgan’s story in season 5 as he wanted to. Carol's character won't have been screwed up this much and Daryl wouldn't have gotten another repeative story. Morgan story in the end was completely and utterly pointless... >
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Post by v on May 7, 2016 11:04:19 GMT -5
I'm bringing this back due to the way the season ended. As we saw, it was NEVER Rick vs Morgan ( as advertised) but was instead Carol VS Morgan. What was it about Carol specifically that had Morgan dogging her steps? Several characters are suffering from ptsd, and ALL the characters ( except for Glenn prior to the bunker scene) had taken a life to safe their group. While Lennie and Melissa are both amazing actors, much of Morgan's behavior could be classified as stalking, his single minded pursuit of "changing" carol at times felt almost pathological.(IMO) Morgan's line to Rick in East "my way isn't right, but it's right for me" made sense for his character. He finally admitted that his way won't work for everyone, so why Carol? We also saw Carol crushed under the weight of the things she had done to protect the group. For someone that "Can't KIll" she sure took out a lot of saviors. She did it to protect Maggie and to keep the group on the road from getting to ASZ. I really wonder how this would have played out if they had been able to do this storyline in 5b like they originally wanted to. One thing I'm sure of is that if SG had told Morgan’s story in season 5 as he wanted to. Carol's character won't have been screwed up this much and Daryl wouldn't have gotten another repeative story. Morgan story in the end was completely and utterly pointless... > Daryl/Denise=b/d story line the Wolves=terminus Sam=the girls at least that was the idea I think.(as well as Daryl's arc) were rehashes of what we have already seen.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 7, 2016 11:45:33 GMT -5
I do think Scott G. wanted his two best actors (IMO) to interact. So he gave them both serious emotional issues. Morgan went pyscho in "Clear" and then was able to dig himself out of it with Eastman's therapy. Carol is in an emotional crisis. She's withdrawn from her group emotionally and how physically. She's in pain but masks it with new personas. Maybe Morgan is sensitive to emotional pain. He recognized that Carol was miserable under her facade of perfect housewife. I do think something or someone in the KIngdom is going to help both of them. Morgan didn't stalk Carol but he was aware of her emotional upheavals. It is Morgan after all in the last episode who continues the search. Doesn't quit and then goes against his own belief system to save her. Maybe they are the source of each other's healing. He realized that killing to protect others is not wrong and maybe she'll get the same message. You do what you have to do to keep the people you love alive. Didn't Rosita say something similar to Spencer?
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2016 12:08:00 GMT -5
One thing I'm sure of is that if SG had told Morgan’s story in season 5 as he wanted to. Carol's character won't have been screwed up this much and Daryl wouldn't have gotten another repeative story. Morgan story in the end was completely and utterly pointless... > Daryl/Denise=b/d story line the Wolves=terminus Sam=the girls at least that was the idea I think.(as well as Daryl's arc) were rehashes of what we have already seen. Yep, SG halted the development of both Carol and Daryl.so he could tell and give Morgan a story in season 6. A story that was pointless in the end.
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Post by Starlight on May 7, 2016 12:28:41 GMT -5
I do think Scott G. wanted his two best actors (IMO) to interact. So he gave them both serious emotional issues. Morgan went pyscho in "Clear" and then was able to dig himself out of it with Eastman's therapy. Carol is in an emotional crisis. She's withdrawn from her group emotionally and how physically. She's in pain but masks it with new personas. Maybe Morgan is sensitive to emotional pain. He recognized that Carol was miserable under her facade of perfect housewife. I do think something or someone in the KIngdom is going to help both of them. Morgan didn't stalk Carol but he was aware of her emotional upheavals. It is Morgan after all in the last episode who continues the search. Doesn't quit and then goes against his own belief system to save her. Maybe they are the source of each other's healing. He realized that killing to protect others is not wrong and maybe she'll get the same message. You do what you have to do to keep the people you love alive. Didn't Rosita say something similar to Spencer? I agree that the whole story between Carol and Morgan was born out of SG wanting LJ and MMB to be paired on the screen. But the story its self was beyond forced and contrived and it did make Morgan look like a stalker who zoned in on Carol. He stood by said zero to the other characters about them killing.Instead he just kept zoning in on Carol telling her she was wrong, just adding to her emotional turmoil. He then went behind her back asking for information about her knowing she didn't want him to do know anything about her.And in the end he went after her because of his own guilt and he killed the savior because there was no other choice. And Morgan was the only one to go looking for Carol, because none of the other characters knew she had left. Rick did look but went back. Morgan gave the impression in that scene with Rick that he wanted to find Carol all by himself,which made him look even more creepy. Morgan sees Carol as he saw the Wolf, they are pet projects for him try out the eastman theory on nothing else. So I'm hoping when they get to the kindgom Morgan leaves Carol alone and he goes of and bonds with Ezekiel.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 7, 2016 19:56:27 GMT -5
I don't think he tells Carol that she is wrong as he tells her that she doesn't like killing. Morgan didn't start Carol on her emotional turmoil. She was there when she reunited with the group after Terminus. She told Tyreese that she would leave the group after they reunited Judith with her father. Carol tells Daryl that she can't allow herself to feel. She is cold toward Sam. It isn't Morgan who started her spiraling down but he does voice it to her. "You don't like to kill and you don't have to". The writing is all over the place. Carol says she doesn't want to kill but she loads and automatic weapon in her jacket. so who knows?
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Post by v on May 8, 2016 0:20:14 GMT -5
Morgan wants to "save" someone the same way he was "saved". it's true that Carol was already struggling with the things she has had to do, long before Morgan showed up, BUT having Morgan pass judgement on her didn't help. She hasn't told anyone what she has been through, not about Kavid, the girls, the losses of Ty/Beth/Herschel/Noah. Daryl did try to get her to talk but the last time she tried to talk to someone she got booted to the curb. Carol doesn't like to kill, it hurts her each time but she will kill to protect those she loves and herself (see saviors). Morgan needs to prove that others can be saved because he clings to the Eastman way, its' what brought him back. I get that but unlike Morgan, Carol isn't so far gone that she is a danger to anyone that doesn't pose a threat to her or her family. Morgan was shown at the beginning of HINH to be a danger to ANYONE that he came across. Thats the difference. I will point out that when push came to shove, Morgan pulled the trigger and killed the savior that had Carol.
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Post by booksrbetter on May 8, 2016 12:53:29 GMT -5
Morgan wants to "save" someone the same way he was "saved". it's true that Carol was already struggling with the things she has had to do, long before Morgan showed up, BUT having Morgan pass judgement on her didn't help. She hasn't told anyone what she has been through, not about Kavid, the girls, the losses of Ty/Beth/Herschel/Noah. Daryl did try to get her to talk but the last time she tried to talk to someone she got booted to the curb. Carol doesn't like to kill, it hurts her each time but she will kill to protect those she loves and herself (see saviors). Morgan needs to prove that others can be saved because he clings to the Eastman way, its' what brought him back. I get that but unlike Morgan, Carol isn't so far gone that she is a danger to anyone that doesn't pose a threat to her or her family. Morgan was shown at the beginning of HINH to be a danger to ANYONE that he came across. Thats the difference. I will point out that when push came to shove, Morgan pulled the trigger and killed the savior that had Carol.
Morgan's pulling the trigger is a pivotal moment in his development. He is clinging to Eastman's way of thinking to keep himself from going to back to his "clear" days. So now that he has killed to protect Carol can he (and she) both progress enough to accept that what they have done will not "damn" them? That they can forgive themselves for doing the hard thing when it had to be done and accept that they made mistakes along the way. Carol had grown callous(and in the literal meaning that she had developed thicker skin because she to do hard things over and over. Her callouses were her self protection from pain. She deliberately tried to push Sam away from her over and over so that she would have no responsibility (or feeling) in his possible death. But we know from her putting the cookie on his grave that she was still affected by his passing. I believe hsi death was another shove down her emotional black hole. I am still surprised that the Anderson family was slaughtered before their eyes and no other character seemed to remember it. Collective amnesia I guess.
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