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Post by Ripley on Aug 16, 2017 16:56:59 GMT -5
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Post by dark sister on Aug 16, 2017 22:09:58 GMT -5
Discuss season 7's penultimate episide here.
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Post by Ripley on Aug 18, 2017 12:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks for adding the photos dark sister and starting this topic. Going to be a fantastic episode.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 18, 2017 13:04:36 GMT -5
Y'all can tell me if the tag line behind the 10 is too soon.
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Post by sonia on Aug 20, 2017 18:55:11 GMT -5
Jon Snow and Jorah Mormont having scenes together. That does not give me naughty thoughts. Not at all.
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Post by sonia on Aug 20, 2017 20:20:00 GMT -5
Ugh. Littlefinger is such an opportunist weasel.
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Post by sonia on Aug 20, 2017 20:41:11 GMT -5
They need a dragon to come and fly them out of there
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Post by sonia on Aug 20, 2017 20:54:06 GMT -5
Yay! The dragons!
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Post by merelei on Aug 20, 2017 21:16:44 GMT -5
I RARELY SAY THIS BUT I. AM. SHOOK.
I"M FREAKING OUT
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 21:23:36 GMT -5
I want to slap so many people
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 21:33:57 GMT -5
8. LIKES *As ridiculous as the wight hunt is, that entire sequence was really well done and I loved all the character development we got. *Viserion's death was even more brutal on my big TV. *Tyrion and Dany's scene. *Acting was on point all around. *UnViserion. Oh God.
DISLIKES *Winterfell. I tried to take into account everyone else's interpretations of it. How Arya was just testing Sansa and what not, but I still can't help but be really annoyed with how they are characterizing Arya, and how silly they made Sansa look after LF tells her Brienne can protect them, then she sends her away. I felt like the writing almost went an extra step to make them dumb. I think they could've had these same disagreements, just played better. I never liked lettergate, even when I read about it in the leaks. *I wish I shipped Jonerys because then their scenes together wouldn't be so cringey to me. Like Jon somehow knowing her nick name is "Dany" and I felt like they made Viscerion's death all about her feelings for Jon. It's like she didn't get to mourn her son. I think better editing could've still given Jonerys shippers what they wanted, and also have her mourn her child more clearly *And finally, formula. This episode had so many tropes. Carefully placed red shirts, a chance for the main hero to look around at all the chaos while everyone fights around him and he doesn't get touched. Hero charging at the villain etc. They were good scenes but it just wasn't very original and that stops me from giving it a 9 or 10, even though I enjoyed the episode.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 21:37:33 GMT -5
I RARELY SAY THIS BUT I. AM. SHOOK. I"M FREAKING OUT Merelei right now
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Post by walkingdeadrules on Aug 20, 2017 21:37:45 GMT -5
I gave it an 8 too. Too many "they should have/would have died" scenes and then the person coming back or escaping. Not the red shirts of course, just the mains. Jon Snow coming out of the water after being dragged down by the undead who don't need to breathe? Jamie being pulled out of the water after being seen sinking in extremely heavy armor and being surrounded? That card has been played too often and it's pissing me off lol.
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Post by zinc on Aug 20, 2017 21:42:48 GMT -5
I gave it an 8 too. Too many "they should have/would have died" scenes and then the person coming back or escaping. Not the red shirts of course, just the mains. Jon Snow coming out of the water after being dragged down by the undead who don't need to breathe? Jamie being pulled out of the water after being seen sinking in extremely heavy armor and being surrounded? That card has been played too often and it's pissing me off lol. Even his escape and the convenient arrival of Benjen Stark was hard to believe. Just utterly pointless. They might as well have had him hide under a dumpster and ended the episode on a cliffhanger.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 21:46:15 GMT -5
Like, come on Benjen, your ass could've got on that horse. Sure you can't go through the Wall yet, but still.
I'm a bit salty there was no Bran in this episode.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 22:03:45 GMT -5
Though on the bright side. Brienne going to King's Landing for Sansa...Jaime is in King's Landing....
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Post by urdeadtome on Aug 20, 2017 22:06:10 GMT -5
I am so incredibly stressed and confused at the same time! So many feelings and so many questions?! First, were they not in a precarious enough predicament without the fucking hound (I love him, but really?) having to "poke the bear", throw a damn rock at the army of the dead surrounding them!?! Way to go dude! Next, they lost a dragon tonight, poor Viserion. ! That was so sickeningly sad and the look on Dany's face was just the worst; it totally broke my heart! Then, we almost lost Jon Snow like 3 more times tonight, but of course, he made it out because he has a war and a woman to win! Damn, Uncle Benjen to the rescue once again to save the Stark children, but this time he paid with his life, what a way to close his character out. And lastly, with regard to the expedition group disaster. How fucked are they going to be now that the Night King has his own undead dragon to unleash?! My question is, does he still breath fire or ice?? This is crazy!? Okay, and personally, I don't know which situation was scarier tonight? The white walker expedition disaster or Arya and Sansa back at Winterfell?! Honest to God, watching Arya toy with Sansa was like watching Hannibal Lector toy with Clarise Starling! It was so disturbing. I know Sansa was truly happy to have her brother and sister back with her at Winterfell but I'm thinking about now she's wishing that they had had a little better security guards at the gate the day Arya came back! This was a wild and daunting episode tonight. I don't know how in the hell they are going to tie this up next week?!? How can it seriously be the season finale?? Or the SERIES FINALE?! Which one or is it really going to be both next week??! How is that even possible? There's so many ends left to tie up!
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Post by zinc on Aug 20, 2017 22:12:13 GMT -5
Though on the bright side. Brienne going to King's Landing for Sansa...Jaime is in King's Landing.... No.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 20, 2017 22:41:38 GMT -5
Though on the bright side. Brienne going to King's Landing for Sansa...Jaime is in King's Landing.... No. Yes.
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Post by urdeadtome on Aug 20, 2017 22:57:05 GMT -5
I'm really confused after tonight so could someone please tell me?! Is this really the last season (making next week the "series finale") as they've said or is it the season finale? Maybe I'm just in complete denial at the moment but I don't see how next week, in one hour they are going to tie everything up? I seriously thought we had at least 4 more episodes?!? That might have been enough but next week!!? This is ridiculous to me?!
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Post by Ripley on Aug 20, 2017 23:02:27 GMT -5
I gave it a 7 due to tropes and too many perfect Jon escapes tonight.
Likes
* Benjen appearing and his character finally getting an escape from his hellish limbo. He deserves it and having saved both Bran and Jon now, he deserves some peace. Dreading seeing him as a wight though with Jon likely having to put him down.
* I loved the Jon-Jorah conversations around Longclaw and Jorag;s recognition that Jon was better suited for it.
* Loved the look on Sansa's face as she discovered the faces in the bag- priceless.
* Battle scenes were well shot and the whole Hound throwing a stone thing and the wight's response was amazing. The sheep scope of the battle with the above shots and the fill in shows was incredible. These guys do battles better than most shows.
* Glad Dany showed up and saved the day, mostly. Finally she understands what they are dealing with and can shut up with all the "bending the knee" demands.
* I wish I shopped Jonerys (it creeps me out) but I don't. I bet those shippers are thrilled tonight and looking forward to next week- good for them.
* Viserion- RIP. The thought of the Night King having a dragon of hi sown is terrifying and I too wonder if it breathes ice and of Jon will have to be the one to kill him/put him down, etc.
* The Night King was amazing, fantastic and terrifying tonight- well done!
* Loved the conversations between the men, teasing Gendry, learning about each other, the jokes, the laughs etc.
* Brienne heading to King's landing where Jaime is !!!!!!! Yes, I ship it
Dislikes
* If only we had gotten a Sansa-Arya conversation "What happened to you?" from each- would have saved us from this tedious plot i am not enjoying. Plot device to show Littlefingers' levels of deceit and how each young woman still has things to learn despite all of their cunning survival skills since season 1.
* Jon had too many miraculous saves tonight. I did like him coming back through the lake and the shot of Longclaw's pommel with the direwolf just before re-resurfaced.
* I, too, wish Dany's grief at losing Viserion wasn;t so quickly wrapped up in her feelings for Jon. And I wish she had dropped some clue of her thinking on the succession since it has been hammered home, with anvil-subtlety that she cannot have biological children of her own, with the dragons substituting for that.
Those all should have been separate bits IMO.
Littlefinger has lost so much power, he is boring and I am ready for him to die!
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Post by murph on Aug 21, 2017 2:23:37 GMT -5
This is the episode that for me, very much tipped the scale on the line of bad writing outweighing the easy, feel good stuff. It was very close last week. The ooh look at the dragon and the epic fight scenes doesn’t cut it anymore.
I’m done with stupid plot, massive plot holes and characters being reduced to either no plot or one dimensional portrayals when the rest of the plot screams obvious uses for them. Bran is doing fuck all – Bran, who has shown everyone he sees everything…and yet running to send a raven from the Suicide Squad somehow makes sense instead of Bran being the one to see and send help. Especially when we’ve already had him sending a raven to Dragtonstone already. It’s so fuckin’ obvious it’s like D&D are trying to see the stupidest shit they think they can get away with. And the continuation of the complex, multi-layered male characters who are all trying to reach out and make an effort for someone else and the greater good, whilst all the women are being limited to their single thoughts.
The constant ‘hey let’s talk about who we knew’, a bunch of talk of Ned, a bunch of talk of Mormont, a bunch of talk of Mel, a bunch of talk of Brienne, normal character interaction that would obviously happen when people who have crossover with so many people meet for the first time…and yet still no talk of Arya. It’s so obvious she has been removed, again.
I’ve been pretty angry at D&D since season 3 and as an Arya fan, that’s just gotten worse as the season have gone on. As a book fan I’ve always been very much against pitting both Stark sisters against each other but D&D have made that kind of impossible in perception and now have made it impossible literally on screen. I don’t necessarily disagree with there being issue with them, considering the changes to Sansa’s storylining and her being so involved in North stuff instead – I think there would be an issue there. They’ve never gotten along, they did not learn the same and they have grown up without the other and oblivious to what the other as been through. So I’m not against it in principle, but I am against the handling of it. Because Arya has been so reduced for years it means people quickly come to the psychopath labelling for Arya, missing everything else about her. She’s barely had any scenes until this episode but people have misunderstood multiple lines from Arya this season. Both her ‘that’s not you’ to Nymeria and her game of faces shit with Sansa, where obviously she is lying immediately about actually killing her and that’s kind of the point. The misunderstanding is happening not just because of bad dialogue but because they have failed to represent Arya fully. People miss the nuances of her, what’s actually behind her words or action. ‘That’s not you’ doesn’t mean ‘that’s not Nymeria’ as so many people seemed to think. It means Arya recognising her past, who she is, who she wants to be and the journey she’s on and what she can't be. It's about being true to herself. It’s massively important, but it’s lost. Her game of faces stuff shows clearly that she is lying, that she’s giving Sansa the chance, that no, she hasn’t changed in who she is – she still wants to be one picking up a word, she still doesn’t want to wear dresses or be the Lady. It’s just lost to a lot of people though because there isn't enough of the complexity of her shown.
And I hate that the way it’s been done makes them look both like idiots being so easily played and consumed by themselves. I’m fine with Arya and Sansa being flawed, they should be, but the fact they seem so easily played just pisses me off. Arya literally being trained in how to act without being noticed yet Littlefinger figuring out how out to do it easily, Sansa being aware of how much she cannot trust Littlefinger and even vocalising it to her siblings but then confiding in him about them anyway and dismissing it when people sworn to protect her bring it up. Both should be smarter – are smarter. Bran is there, except that can’t be acknowledged because obviously that would change the entire plot and show how much it doesn’t actually work. And I think the use of certain paralleling lines is just cruel and stupid and reminds me of D&D' liking for controversial, fucked up disposal scenes just for the sake of it. I hate storylines with lack of obvious communication and this one has that all over it; convenient missteps and omissions that are needed for the sake of a plot to kind of work.
And again, I think Arya as a person, what she’s been through, who she is and what she’s actually doing is lost in the writing, and I hate that. I think the exploration of Arya, the real challenge of who she is as a Stark in Winterfell, is that actually here, can she be back again – I think that’s important. But I’m not convinced that’s what the story actually is. I don’t agree with much of the judgement of her about it all though. I don’t think it’s the worst thing ever or that Arya actually looks like she’s totally lost and is crazy, I just think it’s a bit shit in its handling. I like seeing Arya angry and questioning. I think that’s actually important for her and speaks to who Arya is, she will always be the angry girl who wishes for her father, no matter her age or how else she is matured, that will always be a part of her. She’s never gotten to deal with any of it, not really, and I think she needs to. She’s never had the human interaction or relationships that has taught her how to properly engage and connect and I think that should be displayed. And the reality of the Starks all being a bit disappointing, that something has broken and it can’t be put back together and they need to find what they are now and how to be again now, I like that too. Again though, I’m not convinced the point actually is that. I think it’s just D&D drama for the sake of it.
Other annoyances: The fact that Gendry brought up his sexual assault and it was dismissed as him whinging and that he should be grateful that the woman involved was naked pissed me off quite a bit. It was best delivered from The Hound because he’s less likely to be sexualising something and just telling someone to shut up regardless of what they’re talking about, but I still have major issue with it. And even more so because it was in amongst the the bonding.
I’m a bit sick of the conversation between Tyrion and Dany about how she’s really good, so can she not impulsively decide she wishes to burn a bunch of people, when I know it’s just going to happen again. And again.
Sansa, stop saying you are the Lady of Winterfell every fucking 5 seconds. I thought you had learned from Cersei. There's a Tywin Lannister lesson in there.
If Jon and Jorah’s friendship is just about love triangle drama set up for later it can fuck off because I like it so far.
“Dany”/“How about my Queen.” is not my kind of thing. And Sansa talking so much about keeping the Lords of the North happy when Jon just gave it away.
Good things: Gendry’s paralleling line about wanting to be one of the Brotherhood to Arya’s same line in Season 3 was a rare perfect moment.
Arya's mentioning of the rules being wrong and that the world doesn't allow girls to do what they want.
Those Lord of Light flaming swords sure are handy.
Gendry not hesitating to help Thoros even after everything.
There’s something about the Hound being the one to end up with the Baratheon warhammer that’s kind of interesting to me.
Throwing rocks at the army of the dead like a dick, cuz duh.
Thoros burning by his own beloved booze.
Sansa’s comment of how she has people loyal to her who will behead her prisoners if she asks in all its foreshadowing.
The relay of passing off the captured wight.
Everyone jumping aboard a dragon.
Everyone’s reaction as Viserion went down, especially the first time witnesses to a dragon. The awe at the existence and the death in one I thought was well done.
Benjen. Never gets the glory he deserves.
I hope Ghost and Nymeria are chillin' somewhere in the Riverlands.
I’m really questioning the point of bringing Gendry along at this point, seeing as he’s been basically booted from that plotline. It’s almost like the point of including him was just to get him to Winterfell. Get forging dragonglass, Gendry.
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Post by murph on Aug 21, 2017 2:38:20 GMT -5
I'm really confused after tonight so could someone please tell me?! Is this really the last season (making next week the "series finale") as they've said or is it the season finale? Maybe I'm just in complete denial at the moment but I don't see how next week, in one hour they are going to tie everything up? I seriously thought we had at least 4 more episodes?!? That might have been enough but next week!!? This is ridiculous to me?! No, there's another season after this which will have 6 episodes. It's the season finale next week.
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Post by Ripley on Aug 21, 2017 5:11:35 GMT -5
AVClub brings up many great points-no contingency plans, no ravens Ruth them, etc.
When writing about a show week-to-week, sometimes you need to roll with the punches: as much as the nature of these reviews means I need to ”judge” an episode before knowing how the show builds on those developments, I always remain open to the show course correcting effectively when something seems a bit off. And so I didn’t spend a lot of time last week talking about how the “Kidnap a Wight” plan made no sense, because I wanted to wait and see how the plan manifested in the episode where it’s put into action.
Yeah, it still doesn’t make any sense.
From the moment it was introduced, the plan was built on the tenuous notion that Cersei is more likely to agree to work together with Daenerys and Jon if she sees a Wight in person. Last week’s episode, “Eastwatch,” never stops to explain why this is, or to have anyone question the logic at hand: it is just universally accepted that it is worth Jon and his compatriots risking their lives in order to secure a Wight and carry it back to King’s Landing. The pace of this season leaves no room for someone to argue that Cersei’s grasp of rational thinking is tenuous, leaving the plot to barrel forward through the Wall and into the tundra beyond.
This season has been full of moments like this one where applying a rigorous logic test to the actions of particular characters proves a bit disheartening. However, in most cases, I have been left more or less satisfied with how the show went after taking these shortcuts, and like many was excited at the prospect of a caper through the snow with some fan favorite characters. “Beyond The Wall” is built on the effective storytelling tool of pre-established stakes: it starts right where “Eastwatch” left off, tapping into our week—or less, I’m aware of the leak—of speculation over who lives, who dies, and how Game Of Thrones tells this story.
Photo: HBO
The result, though, struggles to live up to its billing. On the level of spectacle, “Beyond The Wall” is another series high point, with stellar work from returning director Alan Taylor, capturing the visceral battles that the seven men and several Red Shirts encounter on their journey. And I was charmed by the series of “walk and talks” that punctuate their travels, brief vignettes of characters like Sandor and Tormund interacting for the first time while marching toward their potential dooms. The results are often funny (Gendry getting teased, everything involving Tormund), occasionally emotional (Jorah and Jon reflecting on Jeor’s death), and at times philosophical, as when
Jon and Beric discuss the meaning of their “service” to the Lord of Light. But when those conversations end and the episode moves onto the actual procedural logics of the action in “Beyond The Wall,” a simple and unfortunate truth emerges: this whole situation just became too dumb, buried beneath a shaky set of decisions the show didn’t have time to justify.
I realize that not everyone will care about this—this was a lesson I learned this time last season, when I struggled with “The Battle Of The Bastards” for similar reasons and there was much outcry. And I still hold out hope that, as with last year, the awkwardness of this series of events will transition into a productive finale that pushes us into the final season with considerable momentum. But when the action truly begins mid-way through “Beyond The Wall,” I struggled to figure out what precisely the plan had actually been in this case.
Why didn’t they send scouts ahead to better understand the size of the White Walkers’ army and plan their raid accordingly? Why didn’t they bring a raven with them to send a message back to Eastwatch should they run into any kind of resistance? Why wouldn’t they have had Daenerys bring at least one of her dragons to Eastwatch on standby in case something went wrong?
Photo: HBO
Now, I’m not suggesting that these are “plot holes,” in the sense that these decisions could never make sense: I’m not nitpicking the “accuracy” of a fantasy television series, and fully acknowledge that this is a work of fiction that can push the bounds of logic however it pleases.
However, as with the Battle of the Bastards (where Sansa’s decision-making remains completely unclear to me), we have a situation here where a series of events engineered for action and suspense effectively sells out the characters involved. How can we take Jon seriously as a military leader when he devises a plan that falls apart so easily, and contains zero contingencies? Did he never even ask Daenerys about the possibility of using the dragons?
It would be one thing if we had seen a sequence of Daenerys offering the dragons as support in “Eastwatch” and Jon stubbornly refusing, or Jon asking for the dragons but Daenerys refusing to offer them, but neither happened. Instead, the show gives the impression that Jon Snow barreled into the north without much in the way of a plan, bailed out by a sprinting Gendry and Daenerys being compelled to rush to his aid by her love for him. And while there is a certain thrill to those moments of peril and split-second decision-making, they come at the expense of the characters, who are temporarily rendered idiots because the action demands it.
None of this entirely destroys the thrills of “Beyond The Wall”: even if the subtext is Jon’s idiocy, the struggle for survival and Daenerys’ arrival play out effectively. But given that the show never established why getting a Wight was worth this much risk, thus making its retrieval a half-baked MacGuffin, the whole sequence ends up feeling emptier than it could have. The only death is Thoros of Myr, whose long absence from the show robs the loss of much impact, and it’s hard not to be a bit disaffected by Jon’s miraculous survival of his journey into the frozen lake when he’s cheated death for three seasons in a row now. It’s all well-rendered: I actually thought for a second the haunting shot of Longclaw on the ice might be the final shot of the episode, I cheered when Coldhands rounded the corner to save Jon from imminent doom, and despite seeing the writing on the wall the second the White Walker raised that ice spear I got the requisite chills at a dragon’s blue eye. But it’s frustrating to have another thrilling setpiece that ends up failing to hold up to even minor scrutiny, creating yet another penultimate episode that I imagine is better for those whose job isn’t scrutinizing the show on an episodic basis.
Photo: HBO
But at least I understand the shortcuts guiding the action-oriented section of “Beyond The Wall.” This trip had to happen so that this season would have a major encounter between our heroes and the White Walkers, they had to be getting some type of MacGuffin to justify next week’s summit at King’s Landing, and the dragons had to be there so that Zombie Viserion* could make next season more of a fair fight. The condensed nature of this season meant that the logics underpinning these developments suffered considerably, but I at least see why those decisions were made, and can acknowledge some of the results have the potential to push the series in exciting directions.
* Consensus, based on the leak, is that it was Viserion who died, but neither the episode nor the behind-the-scenes actually confirms this. [Edit: Apparently it’s in the Closed Captioning.] The show hasn’t given us a clear look at each dragon’s distinctive coloring much recently, and so I’m personally basing this on the fact that it makes more sense to turn the one named after Viserys than the one named after Rheagar.
However, the Winterfell sections of “Beyond The Wall” are just plain perplexing. I sort of get what the show is arguing: for as much as Sansa and Arya may have been transformed by their respective experiences, they find themselves reverting back to their old sibling dynamic, with Sansa bristling at Arya’s judgment and Arya questioning Sansa’s motivations. But everything about this story suffers from the lack of time the show has had to sketch out both Arya and Sansa’s perspectives this season.
While it is—typical, for this season—unclear how much time has passed since Arya’s return, the story suggests the two sisters never inquired about the other’s experiences, which doesn’t make sense. Wouldn’t Arya have wanted to know more about Sansa’s experiences in the wake of Ned’s death? Wouldn’t Sansa have wondered where her sister had been all that time? Despite their differences, wouldn’t the initial emotion of their sudden family reunion have inspired at least some type of information download to better understand the other?
Photo: HBO Instead, the show makes the argument that Arya is too hung up on her earlier impression of Sansa, reinforced by the letter Littlefinger planted for her to find in his mattress, to investigate further. She expresses surprise when Sansa alludes to her mistreatment at the hands of both Joffrey and Ramsay, but surely there was someone—Brienne! The omniscient Bran!—who could have filled in some of those gaps, even if she for some reason hasn’t spoken to Sansa herself? The show appears to be exploring the challenges that Arya would face returning to her past life after becoming a Faceless Man: her training was about forgetting who she was, but she rejected that part of the training, and this could be read as the consequence of that decision as the past clouds her present. But while that makes sense in the abstract, in context why is Arya more judgmental of Sansa than Littlefinger, who she knows from past experience at Harrenhal is inherently duplicitous and manipulative? And while I think Sansa could try to be a bit less defensive, I don’t blame Sansa for being freaked out by Arya’s bag of faces, especially when Arya—channeling Bran—makes no attempt to explain what happened in plain terms, choosing instead to speak in riddles as if to be purposefully difficult.
Yes, these are still basically teenagers, and so there is a certain defense that they make inherently irrational decisions sometimes. But after these characters were separated for almost six seasons, and after having gone through so much, such a speedy regression to an old dynamic is a tough sell dramatically. While the fast pacing this season works well enough for action, it struggles with character decisions like these. There hasn’t been the real estate necessary to sell that Jaime would be so willing to forgive Cersei, for example, and the same problems echo here: I am willing to accept that Sansa and Arya might not get along swimmingly in the wake of their reunion, but the speed at which they’ve turned on one another—Arya legit threatens to cut off her face here—and the implied lack of communication between them up to this point are shortcuts that make both characters look worse than I think the story intends. And if this is, in fact, a giant plot to manipulate Littlefinger that the two sisters have devised, it’s not worth the way it’s selling out the characters in the interim. It’s about the disconnect between how a story sounds in the abstract and how it plays out in context, which seems to be the most significant consequence of the shortened season order.
Photo: HBO This, inevitably, brings us to Jon and Dany. If there was any confusion about the plans for this relationship when it first started three weeks ago, those were more or less erased with their interactions last week, and obliterated by everything that happens in “Beyond The Wall.” It’s another case of the show trying to cram an entire relationship arc into just a few hours: the two met under auspicious circumstances, connected over their shared hardships, made heroic self-sacrifices the other admired, and here find solace in one another in the wake of tragedy. By the time “Beyond The Wall” ends, they truly understand the other: Jon knows the lengths Dany—sorry, Daenerys—is willing to go in order to save him (and thus the cause he believes in), while Dany has seen Jon’s scars and understands that their hardships are more comparable than she might have realized.
While this does all feel rushed in similar ways to Arya and Sansa’s conflict, it’s been more central to the storytelling of the season, and the extra time has rendered this story about as well as I think was possible in such a short time frame. I’m not entirely convinced that Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke have enough chemistry to sell such a quick “courtship,” but actions speak louder than words, and that works to the show’s advantage here. For those who are onboard with this relationship, I think the broad stroke poetics of the pairing have been well-rendered.
That said, I’m still a bit puzzled by the show being so earnest in sketching out their relationship with the specter of incest hanging over the storyline. Yes, I know the show has an existing incestual relationship, and yes I know it’s a part of the Targaryen bloodline, but I just can’t get on board with this love story. It’s one of those cases where I feel readily aware that I’m truly incapable of taking the show at face value. It’s like when Viserion goes down beyond the Wall: my mind immediately went to “Zombie Dragon,” because writing about the show on a weekly basis pushes you to think about cause-and-effect storytelling more than the average audience member. While I’m guessing many reading this saw the foreshadowing of “Chekhov’s Zombie Bear”—reminding us that it’s not just humans who can be revived—others likely failed to consider the possibility right up until the post-script with the chains, and that’s fine. Not everyone will watch the show with the same eye to the future, and I envy those more capable of enjoying the show purely in the present tense.
Photo: HBO And personally, such a perspective seems necessary to feel emotionally invested in Jon and Dany’s relationship. This is a fundamentally doomed ‘ship: I stand firm in my belief the show will not be telling a happily ever after storyline featuring an Aunt and her nephew, and thus there will come a point sooner than later where this relationship will fall apart for one reason or another. For some, I imagine it provides a glimpse of hope in what can be a dark show, and there’s obviously dramatic value in the tragiromantic should the story move in that direction. But maybe I’m just cold-hearted, but I’m not convinced the romantic elements of Jon and Dany’s relationship are adding to the show in a meaningful way, and wonder why their connection couldn’t be rendered platonic instead. There’s too much baggage that the show is ignoring, and arbitrarily keeping from the characters despite having shared it with the audience. In a season where everything is moving fast, the information about Jon’s Targaryen roots has stalled completely for dramatic effect, without much logic justifying it beyond “Bran’s being withholding and Gilly picked the wrong time to read through the Septon’s files with Sam.”
And that’s the thing: judged entirely on dramatic effect, I acknowledge that “Beyond The Wall” more or less continues the season’s momentum. Big things happen in the episode, and set up bigger things to come. The summit at King’s Landing promises to bring together characters who have long been separated, whether it’s another reunion between Jaime and Brienne or the Hound’s first glimpse of the walking Zombie Mountain. We now have a Dragon vs. Zombie Dragon showdown on the horizon, and Daenerys is more motivated than ever as she begins her negotiations with a plotting Cersei. “Beyond The Wall” has not fundamentally dismantled the good work done so far this season, but it ends up negatively impacted by the compromises made to cram that work into such a short period. Without taking anything away from the accomplishments of the cast and crew in pulling off this scale of action in a television series, this is the second straight season where I wish it didn’t feel like sacrifices were being made on a narrative level in order to deliver the expected spectacle—or sibling rivalry—in the penultimate episode.
Stray observations
For the record: the behind-the-scenes are going with “Frozen Lake Battle” for the name of the showdown here. Better than “Loot Train Attack,” but still a bit too descriptive for my liking. Taking suggestions for alternatives. So, did anyone else find it weird that they didn’t actually technically identify which dragon it was that ended up getting killed? Not even Daenerys yelling his name out in anguish? I realize they haven’t really given Rheagal and Viserion as much personality as Drogon, but it’s a confusing decision nonetheless, made all the more confusing by the fact that in the “Inside the Episode” feature they still don’t identify which dragon it was, as though it doesn’t matter. They just keep saying “the dragon” and “it,” which is just very odd to me. Speaking of which: Jon is totally responsible for Viserion’s death here, right? I think the episode argues that Jon has Beric’s plan—kill the Night King, kill the entire army—in his head and he decides to go commando and go after him alone, but that’s yet another mark in the column of “Jon is a terrible military commander.” I think it’s hard to beat Tormund and the Hound’s first conversation in terms of the different pairings on the journey beyond the Wall, in part because it reminded me of the scene in A Muppet Family Christmas where Animal and Cookie Monster meet for the first time. (I hope Tormund tries to work “dick” into his next interaction with Brienne.) Sir Beric creates a clear “end game” for Jon: if he kills the Night King, he’ll kill all the White Walkers and the Wights, by the logic that he created all of them. Note that it is Jorah Mormont, of Bear Island, who ultimately takes down the zombie bear.
In the “Inside the Episode” they briefly mention that Coldhands doesn’t go with Jon because there’s “not time,” which is the same nonsense Coldhands says. Realistically, I’d argue the logic was that two bodies would slow down the horse, and Coldhands was resigned to serving his purpose in his purgatory (which is the poetic reason Benioff offers in the behind-the-scenes). Sansa tells Littlefinger that he hasn’t heard from Jon in weeks—did he not have someone sending updates back to Sansa? That seems sort of rude, honestly—why wouldn’t he want to keep Sansa updated? Is Dragonstone short on ravens? Is Littlefinger intercepting them? I’m puzzled by that.
“Walking’s good. Fighting’s better. Fucking’s best.”—Tormund Giantsbane, ladies and gentlemen. Speaking of Tormund: it’s interesting to see his perspective on Mance’s decision not to bend the knee, now that he’s had time to “go South” and fought for the other side. It reminds us of the parallels between Mance and Jon’s situations, but also points to why Tormund is a more pragmatic figure, and thus more likely to survive than leaders who often lack that pragmatism.
There’s long been discussion of the “three-headed dragon” and who the third dragon rider would be in a battle situation, but Viserion’s death and resurrection solves that particular problem, so I think it’s fair to say the “Tyrion is secretly a Targaryen” theory is not going to rear its head here. I had honestly never quite registered that there are legends of “Ice Dragons” that exist in the context of the books—not sure if “Zombie Dragon” is quite the same thing, but we’re certainly going to find out. (Also, apparently this was something that leaked before the season started, which means I’m pretty good at avoiding leaks given it never came to my attention.)
I’m angry that Sansa didn’t listen to Brienne’s advice about Littlefinger, but I’m glad she refused Pod’s services: I want to make sure Pod gets to reunite with Tyrion. M“You don’t look much like him”—again, the writers are reminding us about the “Ned isn’t Jon’s father” bell but refuse to just ring it and be done already.
I appreciate that it’s the Hound who makes the mistake of restarting the battle with his absent-minded rock throwing: a reminder that not all of our heroes are learned folk, and that sometimes they’ll do dumb things in such moments.
I understand why the show didn’t want to have too many main characters die during that battle: the second you kill more than one person, each death is less meaningful, and they’ll need these characters for future battles. But I do think that the Red Shirt deaths ended up being a bit too much of a running joke. I wish they’d felt a little less random—make one of them part of Tormund’s clan or something?
It’s notable the show hasn’t established whether or not Jon is capable of having children after, you know, dying—are they both infertile? “Who was the last person to call me that?”—why does Jon call her Dany, exactly? He doesn’t have our excuse, which is “tired of writing out Daenerys and convincing our brains we’re spelling it correctly.”
Question of the Week: I’m curious to know how people’s expectations over the episode’s conclusion changed over the course of the battle. Did you ever doubt Jon’s plot armor? Did you think it was possible Daenerys would die as Tyrion feared she would? I really did think that shot of Longclaw could be the end at one point, and that we’d be in a post-Jon show, which I was more excited by than where we ended up, if I’m being honest.
Book Reader-Specific Question of the Week: I mean, this is sort of the same question every week, right? Do we think any of this plays out in the books? I feel like Zombie Dragon feels like a possibility, but everything else? Who knows.
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Post by merelei on Aug 21, 2017 5:49:41 GMT -5
I RARELY SAY THIS BUT I. AM. SHOOK. I"M FREAKING OUT Merelei right now BWAHAHAHA YES HONEY THANK YOU!!!
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Post by Ripley on Aug 21, 2017 6:02:08 GMT -5
Interesting central theme I've not seen discussed here WaPo
"Here's a recap of the sixth episode in Season 7 of "Game of Thrones."
Note: I’m reviewing “Game of Thrones” from the perspective of someone who has read all of George R.R. Martin’s novels, while my colleague David Malitz, who hasn’t read the books, will be writing straight recaps. His write-up of episode 6, “Beyond The Wall,” will appear at The Post’s Style Blog. This post discusses the events of the Aug. 20 episode of “Game of Thrones” in detail. You can find my recaps of every prior episode of the show here. Readers have reported some problems with the links from ThinkProgress. We’re doing our best to get them fixed. Can’t get enough “Game of Thrones”? My Washington Post chat here will return after the finale on
August 28; I’m on vacation, but reviewing “Game of Thrones” for all of you as usual, because who am I kidding? Am I going to miss an episode of this show even while on a beach preparing for an eclipse?
“We both wanted to be other people when we were younger. You wanted to be a queen, to sit next to a handsome young king on the Iron Throne. I wanted to be a knight, to pick up a sword like father and go off to battle,” Arya Stark (Maisie Williams) tells her sister Sansa (Sophie Turner). “The world doesn’t just let girls decide what they’re going to be. But I can now. With the faces, I can choose. With the faces, I can become someone else: speak in their voice, live in their skin. I could even become you. . . . I wonder what it would feel like to wear those pretty dresses, to be the lady of Winterfell. All I’d need to find out is your face.”
Unless there’s more to the magic of the House of Black and White than I’m aware of, Arya’s wrong. Arya is strong in ways that Sansa isn’t, but she also has never been tested in the ways that Sansa has. The House of Black and White could be harsh, but unlike Cersei Lannister’s (Lena Headey) rule in King’s Landing or Ramsay Bolton’s (Iwan Rheon) mad charnel house, it had rules. Arya has been stabbed and beaten, but she hasn’t been raped or tortured. She thinks she can imagine what it is to be Sansa, but Sansa is more than her face. And this episode of “Game of Thrones” was about more than an undead dragon with icy blue eyes.
One of the running themes of “Game of Thrones” and George R.R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire novels is that people don’t always understand the past the way they think they do.
Catelyn Stark’s (Michelle Fairley) marriage to Ned Stark (Sean Bean) was marred by her belief that he had fathered a bastard child, Jon Snow (Kit Harington). Jon chose the Night’s Watch out of belief in his illegitimacy. But the truth is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (Aisling Franciosi). At the beginning of the series, Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) believed she knew her brother Viserys (Harry Lloyd) to be the stuff of kings, though the history they both revered had only accentuated the madness and weakness in their family line. Gendry (Joe Dempsie) thought he was a simple blacksmith’s apprentice. Davos Seaworth (Liam Cunningham) believed that Stannis Baratheon (Stephen Dillane) was all the God he’d ever need.
And everyone thought the White Walkers were no more than legend, or at least that they had vanished long ago. Instead, they’re the very real creation of a desperate people, the Children of the Forest, struggling to free themselves from the invaders who now scrap and brawl over the Iron Throne as if it’s natural that they should, as if one of their claims to it can be more legitimate than another.
Yes, the Magnificent Seven’s battle beyond the Wall and the death of one of Dany’s dragons were the splashy elements of this episode. But, though they may prove strategically important in the clash to come, they weren’t the heart of this hour of television. Instead, “Game of Thrones” took its penultimate episode of the season to remind us just how little any one person can see of the past, and how important a whole portrait is. And the show did it with a series of character moments that felt like both elegies and revelations.
One complaint about this season of “Game of Thrones” has been how quickly the characters have moved around the map, and how the show hasn’t given them enough time to develop as people as a result. But Jon’s march beyond the Wall was full of those moments, and all for the better.
Jon finally got to meet Jorah Mormont (Iain Glen), the true-born son of his mentor, the long-dead Jeor Mormont (James Cosmo). To Jon, his Valyrian steel sword Longclaw is Jorah’s by right: He sees Jorah’s legitimate birth, while Jorah sees the shame he brought to his father, and the joy that Jon, Jeor’s adopted son, gave the old man. Their exchange over who really owns Longclaw was a subtle renegotiation for each man, with Jon learning to accept his role as Jeor’s son even as Jorah relinquished that part of his identity for the last time.
Sandor Clegane’s (Rory McCann) exchange with Tormund Giantsbane (Kristofer Hivju) over Brienne of Tarth (Gwendoline Christie) reminded us just how many ways it’s possible to see the knight who was once scorned as “Brienne the Beauty” in Renly Baratheon’s (Gethin Anthony) short-lived court. To Sandor, Brienne is a fellow freak, the woman who beat him in combat and accidentally ushered him into his new life. To Tormund, Brienne is the possible mother of his children, the “great big monsters” he dreams of who will “conquer the world” as a family. Both men are right, of course, and there’s a loveliness in seeing Brienne loom large, not as an awkward, ungainly girl with an unrequited crush on a king, but as a figure of mythic stature, fearsome and romantic both. It’s as if all of Brienne’s possible futures coexist at once.
Gendry and the members of the broken Brotherhood Without Banners argue about the Brotherhood’s decision to sell Gendry to Melisandre (Carice van Houten), an act that was to Gendry a primal betrayal, and to Thoros of Myr (Paul Kaye) and to Beric Dondarrion (Richard Dormer), an act of survival, even of sacrifice. And in Jorah and Thoros’s brief conversation about Thoros’s grand performance at Pyke during the long-dead Balon Greyjoy’s (Patrick Malahide) rebellion, Thoros is a drunk and a legend all at once. Even if Thoros doesn’t embrace Jorah’s version of events, Jorah’s judgement that “you were the bravest man I ever saw” is a gift to Thoros before his death.
Arya and Sansa’s disagreement about the letter Sansa wrote at Cersei’s behest so long ago is the most substantive of these disagreements about the past — about these moments when it’s impossible to make someone who wasn’t there understand what happened because you don’t understand it yourself. Though it doesn’t end in bloodshed, at least not this time, their exchange adds a visceral urgency to an idea that shows up in every storyline this episode. If you can’t make someone else understand the past, or if you refuse to interrogate the past, you can both end up victims of your misunderstanding.
I’m past the point of trying to anticipate what’s going to happen on “Game of Thrones”: Like Beric and Jon after their resurrections, I’m pretty much along for the ride, and I’m definitely so foolish to go tossing rocks at ice zombies just because I’ve gotten impatient.
But I do feel confident enough to say that we shouldn’t let ourselves get distracted by any single glowing blue eye, no matter how big it is.
This season of “Game of Thrones” has been dedicated to Jon’s efforts to get the other characters to accept that there is a true and dangerous story behind the fables they have been taught to disregard. Next episode will be a test of his skills in diplomacy, though whether he can get the huge remaining cast of characters on the show to cast aside their differences and pursue the truth remains a very open question.
The most tragic conclusion to the show might be for Jon and his allies to succeed in that quest, but to fail in the end because they cannot discern a deeper truth beyond even the parts of the past that they’ve unraveled. Whatever happens on “Game of Thrones,” it will grow from seeds sown so long ago that no one living remembers there were fields there."
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Post by urdeadtome on Aug 21, 2017 8:26:51 GMT -5
I'm really confused after tonight so could someone please tell me?! Is this really the last season (making next week the "series finale") as they've said or is it the season finale? Maybe I'm just in complete denial at the moment but I don't see how next week, in one hour they are going to tie everything up? I seriously thought we had at least 4 more episodes?!? That might have been enough but next week!!? This is ridiculous to me?! No, there's another season after this which will have 6 episodes. It's the season finale next week. Thank God!! Thanks murph, I don't know how I missed that info (well, actually I miss a lot sometimes so it's understandable!) but Whew! I am relieved to know that for sure. Do you know if we will have to wait just as long as we normally do for the next season or are they going to be turning it around a little quicker since it's shorter?
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Post by murph on Aug 21, 2017 10:57:24 GMT -5
No, there's another season after this which will have 6 episodes. It's the season finale next week. Thank God!! Thanks murph, I don't know how I missed that info (well, actually I miss a lot sometimes so it's understandable!) but Whew! I am relieved to know that for sure. Do you know if we will have to wait just as long as we normally do for the next season or are they going to be turning it around a little quicker since it's shorter? No problem. As far as I know it will be the same as usual. It's just one episode less than this season and I would imagine they'd want to keep the same kind of scheduling, both filming and airing. I think they start filming in October? dark sister may know for sure.
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Post by zinc on Aug 21, 2017 12:29:48 GMT -5
No, there's another season after this which will have 6 episodes. It's the season finale next week. Thank God!! Thanks murph, I don't know how I missed that info (well, actually I miss a lot sometimes so it's understandable!) but Whew! I am relieved to know that for sure. Do you know if we will have to wait just as long as we normally do for the next season or are they going to be turning it around a little quicker since it's shorter? From what I last heard, next season might not air until 2019. Hope it has been moved forward.
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Post by dark sister on Aug 21, 2017 12:59:25 GMT -5
The crew goes back to work in late September I believe. There isn't an confirmed return date for the final season either, just a lot of guessing. I'm assuming late 2018 is when we're going to get it.
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