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Post by Ripley on Nov 15, 2016 20:30:09 GMT -5
From the good folks at Spoil'ED Rotten Walking Dead Fans. 8-) "...Lot of Bark, Lot of Bite, No Character Jeffrey Dean Morgan remains as excellent at playing Negan in season 7 as he was in season 6. The only reason Negan is not an entire disappointment as a character is because of Jeffrey Dean Morgan's performance. The veteran actor elevates Negan to something special. In reality, everything else surrounding the performance doesn't support him. Negan simply isn't that interesting as a character... ...If you compare Negan to other new characters, it is immediately clear how short he comes up in comparison. In one episode The Walking Dead managed to show off many different sides of "King" Ezekiel. Ezekiel is over-the-top but at the same time kind, smart and more than a little dangerous. The Walking Dead took a larger than life character like Ezekiel, a man who owns a pet tiger, and made him into a full person in one episode. Negan has been given twice, maybe thrice, the screentime of Ezekiel and the only thing that has been added to his character is that he "doesn't enjoy killing women." (Negan does enjoy forcing "consensual" sex out of women though... ...Even when you compare Negan to other Saviors he still looks insanely poorly written. The best Saviors that The Walking Dead has introduced are Dwight and the short-lived Paula from season 6. In both Dwight and Paula, The Walking Dead gave the audience reasons for what actions those characters have taken. Paula and Dwight might have both done monstrous things but they, themselves, are not monsters. They might be unlikable but they are still understandable. Negan is just a one-dimensional wrecking ball of a character. No depth, no emotion, just killing... ...The Walking Dead has to prove there is a reason behind Negan's actions other than shocking the audience. It doesn't even need to be a flashback. Negan goes on so many long, obnoxious monologues that he could tell someone his entire life story and it wouldn't seem out of character. No matter how The Walking Dead gets there, they need to prove that there is a reason to care about Negan beyond how well he can kill people with baseball bats... link
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on Nov 15, 2016 22:37:58 GMT -5
I want to make out with whoever wrote this.
Celebrating Ezekiel's introduction over Negans is highly justified. The sad thing is Ezekiel's intro proves the show can pull off larger than life character but just didn't pull it off with negan. I don't know if it was laziness....thinking the reputation of the character would take care of itself or what, but I do agree that Dwight and especially Paula were saviors which feel/felt more fleshed out.
I imagine that there will be a time where we will get some "background" to negan which will be meant to give him more substance but I have to wonder how much any of us will care by the time that happens
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Post by v on Nov 15, 2016 22:49:19 GMT -5
great article and I agree wtih them. Zeke had a 50/50 chance of coming off as a cheesy, over the top,one note character but was written and acted in a way that he felt like a real character. We learned in one ep why Zeke is the way he is, why he does the things he does and we understand him. As the article pointed out, he was fleshed out in a truly believable way. negan on the other hand... well y'all have heard my rants about the way they have written him and the way he is playing. JDM is having fun playing Negan, that much is obvious, but Negan as a character is coming across as a 1960's batman villain. I'm disappointed.
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Post by murph on Nov 15, 2016 23:48:36 GMT -5
great article and I agree wtih them. Zeke had a 50/50 chance of coming off as a cheesy, over the top,one note character but was written and acted in a way that he felt like a real character. We learned in one ep why Zeke is the way he is, why he does the things he does and we understand him. As the article pointed out, he was fleshed out in a truly believable way. negan on the other hand... well y'all have heard my rants about the way they have written him and the way he is playing. JDM is having fun playing Negan, that much is obvious, but Negan as a character is coming across as a 1960's batman villain. I'm disappointed. For me it's like a pro-wrestler constantly cutting promos. One enamoured with his own gimmick more than any fan is and one mostly failing to gain real, legit heel heat from an audience. And whom is absolutely burying ever other star on the roster in order to showcase his oversold, overplayed and one-note, predictable bullshit. I share your disappointment.
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Post by gia on Nov 16, 2016 11:06:30 GMT -5
My daughter and I were discussing the difference between him and the other villians on the show. The others had a bit of humanity, given to them by their backstory. They were humanish. The were actual characters. It's hard to explain, I guess. But Negan is just a cartoon villian straight out of Marvel comics. My daughter said she wouldn't want a sad or touching backstory for him. Just something showing how he got to this place, at least. We were comparing him to Gareth, who was so marvelously understated yet so amazingly creepy. Negan is more of a circus clown, while Gareth is one of those scary clowns in horror stories. But JDM is acting his butt off and doing as well as can be done with what he has. When the character's mood changes is when I really see what a great job he's doing - when he goes from life of the party to suddenly serious and leans in towards Rick and says something. His whole face changes. That's when you can see Negan is dangerous.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on Nov 17, 2016 0:09:55 GMT -5
The comment in this article are giving me life - there are so many who seem to recognize what went wrong with Negan and its so gratifying to know it's not just me (or, some of us). It'll be interesting to see what we all think of negan by the end of the season...will some background make you guys more agreeable to him? Will it just be more of the same? Hard to say
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Post by Mia on Nov 17, 2016 0:18:47 GMT -5
I wonder if the fans and critics are still bashing Negan at seasons end. If they will makes some changes to him for Season 8?
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Post by murph on Nov 17, 2016 0:29:58 GMT -5
My daughter and I were discussing the difference between him and the other villians on the show. The others had a bit of humanity, given to them by their backstory. They were humanish. The were actual characters. It's hard to explain, I guess. But Negan is just a cartoon villian straight out of Marvel comics. My daughter said she wouldn't want a sad or touching backstory for him. Just something showing how he got to this place, at least. We were comparing him to Gareth, who was so marvelously understated yet so amazingly creepy. Negan is more of a circus clown, while Gareth is one of those scary clowns in horror stories. But JDM is acting his butt off and doing as well as can be done with what he has. When the character's mood changes is when I really see what a great job he's doing - when he goes from life of the party to suddenly serious and leans in towards Rick and says something. His whole face changes. That's when you can see Negan is dangerous. Definitely agree on the human aspect. 5 minutes into watching Service my partner said "JDM is playing him like a comic character. He's not human, which is what the Walking Dead used to be so good for". He is plucked out of the comic, the scene is just plucked out of the comic, there's no adjustment. He isn't human. People do not talk like that. And I think there's a problem in that he can be constantly compared to Ezekiel, who is also grand and over the top and a bit ridiculous and could also be put into 'people don't talk like that' category, but you have a scene with Ezekiel acknowledging that reality, that it is over the top, that it is a show, that he's aware of it, that it isn't all he is. It would work better with Negan I think if there were moments that showed that actually, he does put this effort into being so extreme, that it is a bit of a facade, that he isn't just that, all. the. time, he isn't just one-note. But so far that doesn't seem to be the case in any way. That apparently is just him. People are not like that; comic-book and video game characters are like that. I disagree on JDM. I don't think it's just a material issue. I think it's a JDM issue too. It's all a very bad mix that does not work for me. I'm not convinced it ever will, regardless of potential backstory.
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Post by Starlight on Nov 17, 2016 16:30:48 GMT -5
Negan isn't working because the show is shoving him down the audience's throats and they are repeating the same crap over and over again.... The audience got in the premiere that Negan is evil, but for some reason the show thinks it has to hammer it home everytime he is on screen.
And even though JDM is a talented actor his performance as Negan isn't hitting the mark. He seems to be completely miscast in the role. Maybe if he dialed back on his performance then just maybe Negan would work. Right now Negan isn't the character you love to hate... he is a character you just hate...
And it will be funny to see the show trying to humanise the character with his backstory. When the backstory still paints him as a huge dick.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on Nov 17, 2016 16:56:34 GMT -5
If the show did a better job of balancing the story, if many of us didnt feel starved for focus and development on the character's we've been invested in for years, and if it didnt feel as if the show was trying to rebrand itself the "walking negan" as a way to "breathe new life" into this aging dog, I might have a different take on the character.
Its hard to sit back and enjoy this guy's bravado and his badness when I find myself wondering whats going on with the other characters. I wonder if that werent the case if I would find him as exhausting as I currently do. I just see negan as "in the way" for the most part in terms of the story, rather than being a critical part of it.
When Michonne was introduced at the end of the 2nd season - really third season - we all knew (and I wasnt a part of the fandom at all but I still knew) that this would be a game, changing, iconic character, but she was introduced in a way which felt organic and was promoted intensely without taking everything over and were glad to see more of her as time went on. I know its not apples to apples but I cant help feel like Negan was just dumped into the story because the show is determined to keep in line with the comics as much as possible (see also: Jessick...it happened. She died, her whole family died and no fucks were given).
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Post by Ripley on Nov 17, 2016 17:07:06 GMT -5
The comment in this article are giving me life - there are so many who seem to recognize what went wrong with Negan and its so gratifying to know it's not just me (or, some of us). It'll be interesting to see what we all think of negan by the end of the season... will some background make you guys more agreeable to him? Will it just be more of the same? Hard to say Negan backstory isn't going to make me feel warmer towards the character, because it always comes down to personal choices. Every character alive on TWD at this point in the ZA- 2+ years in, has had to do terrible things, lost people they loved or liked, faced dangers and chose options. Negan is like Dwight to me- the choices he made, he made of his own free will to survive, but that doesn't mean the choices were necessarily good or even the best possible at the time. Not everyone would make the same choices as Negan, Dwight, The Governor,or Claimers or even Gareth and the Termites.Carol, Daryl, Rick, and the rest of the group never made those choices nor sought out that type of power or leadership status IMO. Gareth and his people chose to take the easy way out of food procurement using a cheesy slogan repeated by their abusers/rapists as their mantra. Lighting a bnch of candles and painting names on the floor with other slogans doesn't change the fact they were active cannibals whose priority was luring innocent survivors to Terminus in order to kill and eat them. Negan chose to bully, dominate and humiliate as his rise to power. It works for him now, but sooner or later, crazy dictators have a way of getting killed, deposed or defeated. His time will come on the show as it did in the comic. Until then, we have to suffer the never-ending monologues without overdosing on the eyerolls.
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Post by Ripley on Nov 17, 2016 17:09:37 GMT -5
If the show did a better job of balancing the story, if many of us didnt feel starved for focus and development on the character's we've been invested in for years, and if it didnt feel as if the show was trying to rebrand itself the "walking negan" as a way to "breathe new life" into this aging dog, I might have a different take on the character. Its hard to sit back and enjoy this guy's bravado and his badness when I find myself wondering whats going on with the other characters. I wonder if that werent the case if I would find him as exhausting as I currently do. I just see negan as "in the way" for the most part in terms of the story, rather than being a critical part of it. When Michonne was introduced at the end of the 2nd season - really third season - we all knew (and I wasnt a part of the fandom at all but I still knew) that this would be a game, changing, iconic character, but she was introduced in a way which felt organic and was promoted intensely without taking everything over and were glad to see more of her as time went on. I know its not apples to apples but I cant help feel like Negan was just dumped into the story because the show is determined to keep in line with the comics as much as possible (see also: Jessick...it happened. She died, her whole family died and no fucks were given). You are definitely on a roll today Meggo358 with so many terrific points. I agree the introduction of Michonne felt natural and not contrived or as Bestrafen used to say, "shoe-horned into the story." Ekekiel's introduction also felt less contrived to me, but then he only got a few months of solid promotion rather than being the marketing strategy for season 67.
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Meggo358
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Post by Meggo358 on Nov 17, 2016 17:25:58 GMT -5
Ripley, I'm trying to keep an open mind as I want to enjoy the story, but man you make some good points. I am hoping (but not hopeful, if that makes sense) that the show will decide not to try to force the idea that we should be on negans side (something tptb said would happen to the audience this season) but let him stay a bad guy without trying to add layers. He's done too much, too quickly, IMO, to allow the audience to have a mental backtrack and decide he had no choice, he isnt so bad, or whatever. As you say all of the characters find themselves in life or death situations. Some take advantage in the worst way possible (negan) some use it as an excuse to do whatever is needed to survive (gareth) and some try to stay on some reasonably decent path (team family). The choice is still up to each character and group, so yeah, its hard to imagine that finding out negan used to be a ping pong player or whatever will soften my opinion.
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Post by nana on Nov 17, 2016 18:17:54 GMT -5
I just had this thought about Negan and Ezekiel... how they are so over the top...and one is believable because of backstory and the other is just a cartoon character.
It intrigues me that Negan is demanding things of his people that a less than noble king would.... commanding people bow down when he goes by, total dominance, keeping prisoners, etc. Very opposite of Zeke (there was a discussion on here once about the characters and their opposites).
I am not asking for Negan's backstory because I don't care what he once was like. But they could give JDM something to work with... a line that causes him to give a faraway look, or hint at some type of empathy for a character.
He is frightening when he fades from his buffoonish self to anger. But that is it for me. Oh yeah, and he has a version of Rick's head tilt when he squints and sticks his tongue through his teeth. That's about it.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Nov 18, 2016 10:55:51 GMT -5
I just had this thought about Negan and Ezekiel... how they are so over the top...and one is believable because of backstory and the other is just a cartoon character. It intrigues me that Negan is demanding things of his people that a less than noble king would.... commanding people bow down when he goes by, total dominance, keeping prisoners, etc. Very opposite of Zeke (there was a discussion on here once about the characters and their opposites). I am not asking for Negan's backstory because I don't care what he once was like. But they could give JDM something to work with... a line that causes him to give a faraway look, or hint at some type of empathy for a character. He is frightening when he fades from his buffoonish self to anger. But that is it for me. Oh yeah, and he has a version of Rick's head tilt when he squints and sticks his tongue through his teeth. That's about it. I so wish they had combined episodes 2 and 3 to really highlight the differences between the two leaders. Negan is a tyrant who demands respect by force, while Zeke and his "subjects" are a family. And I think you bring up a good point about characters and their opposites. In the other thread, Negan was linked with Rick (and I still think it's appropriate) but you're right Zeke is also the opposite of Negan, and to a lesser point opposite of the Rick we saw in season 6.
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Post by gia on Nov 18, 2016 11:04:49 GMT -5
Negan almost reminds me of Heath Ledger's Joker......only not as well acted as Joker was. Joker was more insane, Negan just comes across as annoying, petulant and narcissistic. Maybe it's the constant smiling that gives them a similarity.
I love the comparisons between Ezekiel and Negan.
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Post by v on Nov 18, 2016 11:14:10 GMT -5
I just had this thought about Negan and Ezekiel... how they are so over the top...and one is believable because of backstory and the other is just a cartoon character. It intrigues me that Negan is demanding things of his people that a less than noble king would.... commanding people bow down when he goes by, total dominance, keeping prisoners, etc. Very opposite of Zeke (there was a discussion on here once about the characters and their opposites). I am not asking for Negan's backstory because I don't care what he once was like. But they could give JDM something to work with... a line that causes him to give a faraway look, or hint at some type of empathy for a character. He is frightening when he fades from his buffoonish self to anger. But that is it for me. Oh yeah, and he has a version of Rick's head tilt when he squints and sticks his tongue through his teeth. That's about it. I so wish they had combined episodes 2 and 3 to really highlight the differences between the two leaders. Negan is a tyrant who demands respect by force, while Zeke and his "subjects" are a family. And I think you bring up a good point about characters and their opposites. In the other thread, Negan was linked with Rick (and I still think it's appropriate) but you're right Zeke is also the opposite of Negan, and to a lesser point opposite of the Rick we saw in season 6. if they had combined the eps they would have had to come up with something else to fill a spot...lol but I agree they could have combined them to really highlight the differences between the two leadership styles. Although seeing a full ep all of the kingdom was a nice break from the monologues. I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways.
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Post by v on Nov 18, 2016 11:29:16 GMT -5
If the show did a better job of balancing the story, if many of us didnt feel starved for focus and development on the character's we've been invested in for years, and if it didnt feel as if the show was trying to rebrand itself the "walking negan" as a way to "breathe new life" into this aging dog, I might have a different take on the character. Its hard to sit back and enjoy this guy's bravado and his badness when I find myself wondering whats going on with the other characters. I wonder if that werent the case if I would find him as exhausting as I currently do. I just see negan as "in the way" for the most part in terms of the story, rather than being a critical part of it. When Michonne was introduced at the end of the 2nd season - really third season - we all knew (and I wasnt a part of the fandom at all but I still knew) that this would be a game, changing, iconic character, but she was introduced in a way which felt organic and was promoted intensely without taking everything over and were glad to see more of her as time went on. I know its not apples to apples but I cant help feel like Negan was just dumped into the story because the show is determined to keep in line with the comics as much as possible (see also: Jessick...it happened. She died, her whole family died and no fucks were given). Michonne's intro is still my favorite one of the entire show. The mystery surrounding who her character was (or the GA) and the excitement for comic fans was fantastic. I spent the summer explaining to people how awesome the character was and they couldn't wait for her to be back on screen. With Negan... not so much. I still see folks that have a lot of resentment over the cliffhanger and those that have moved past that resentment mostly ask me the same things: Does he always talk that much. Why don't his men just put a bullet in his head. Where's.. insert favorite character here. What's up with the back tilt thing? (I ask that one myself LOL) The biggest problem I see with Negan (and this is just my opinion) is the hammy delivery of the lines and the complete lack of menace. He's too much of a cartoon character to take seriously as an actual threat. Is Negan Dangerous? hell yes, but its more the power of his charisma and his ability to get the many members of his group to do what he wants that makes him dangerous. (Any time you get someone with that much charisma and have them go to the "dark side" it's never a good thing.)
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Post by jeowyn on Nov 18, 2016 14:46:29 GMT -5
I agree. It's amazing to me how Ezekiel/Shiva/Kingdom was what most people thought was going to be cartoonish/too-over-the-top... but they handled it so well in one episode, he isn't at all.
But maybe that's the point? They had one episode to introduce/flesh out that character to the audience. And they did it. Whereas they basically have given all of S7 to Negan. They're giving him too much attention with very little development aside from the "Negan" they promoted all hiatus as the most dangerous villain. After episode 1, I think everyone got how bad Negan is. But then they gave him more in 3. And 4. The audience GETS IT. He's bad. Real bad. The worst. Check.
Also, in the wake of Glenn's death, I think the audience needs some TF therapy - but instead they're just getting more Negan. So, that's adding to him grinding on people, IMHO.
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Post by Sexual Chocolate on Nov 18, 2016 22:27:11 GMT -5
I agree. It's amazing to me how Ezekiel/Shiva/Kingdom was what most people thought was going to be cartoonish/too-over-the-top... but they handled it so well in one episode, he isn't at all. But maybe that's the point? They had one episode to introduce/flesh out that character to the audience. And they did it. Whereas they basically have given all of S7 to Negan. They're giving him too much attention with very little development aside from the "Negan" they promoted all hiatus as the most dangerous villain. After episode 1, I think everyone got how bad Negan is. But then they gave him more in 3. And 4. The audience GETS IT. He's bad. Real bad. The worst. Check. Also, in the wake of Glenn's death, I think the audience needs some TF therapy - but instead they're just getting more Negan. So, that's adding to him grinding on people, IMHO. Slightly off topic but your comment got me thinking. Yes, they want the GA to know how bad he is but then for the sake of "story" they pull him back. You mean to tell me big bad scary boogeyman Negan wouldn't seek retribution from Carl for daring to threaten him? He spent all of episode 1 breaking Rick, all of episode 3 trying to break Daryl, but he's going to put up with that behavior from a child? And yes, I know he has a special relationship with Carl in the comic, but so far I'm not seeing it on the show. The Negan the writers have presented to me is the type to smile at Carl, grab the nearest Alexandrian, make a long ass boring speech, cut off the finger of said Alexandrian, and put it in Carl's pocket. Instead, he let's Carl get away with pointing a gun at him. So writers if you want him to be the devil then make him the devil, but if he's got layers to him then show it and have them make sense.
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 15:57:46 GMT -5
Yes to all of this. He's a silly cartoon villain at this point that bores me to tears. I'm too old and too intelligent to be impressed with fake "alpha-male" bravado and damaged 12-year boy vocabulary. It'll be a beautiful day when this story line is over. From the good folks at Spoil'ED Rotten Walking Dead Fans. 8-) "...Lot of Bark, Lot of Bite, No Character Jeffrey Dean Morgan remains as excellent at playing Negan in season 7 as he was in season 6. The only reason Negan is not an entire disappointment as a character is because of Jeffrey Dean Morgan's performance. The veteran actor elevates Negan to something special. In reality, everything else surrounding the performance doesn't support him. Negan simply isn't that interesting as a character... ...If you compare Negan to other new characters, it is immediately clear how short he comes up in comparison. In one episode The Walking Dead managed to show off many different sides of "King" Ezekiel. Ezekiel is over-the-top but at the same time kind, smart and more than a little dangerous. The Walking Dead took a larger than life character like Ezekiel, a man who owns a pet tiger, and made him into a full person in one episode. Negan has been given twice, maybe thrice, the screentime of Ezekiel and the only thing that has been added to his character is that he "doesn't enjoy killing women." (Negan does enjoy forcing "consensual" sex out of women though... ...Even when you compare Negan to other Saviors he still looks insanely poorly written. The best Saviors that The Walking Dead has introduced are Dwight and the short-lived Paula from season 6. In both Dwight and Paula, The Walking Dead gave the audience reasons for what actions those characters have taken. Paula and Dwight might have both done monstrous things but they, themselves, are not monsters. They might be unlikable but they are still understandable. Negan is just a one-dimensional wrecking ball of a character. No depth, no emotion, just killing... ...The Walking Dead has to prove there is a reason behind Negan's actions other than shocking the audience. It doesn't even need to be a flashback. Negan goes on so many long, obnoxious monologues that he could tell someone his entire life story and it wouldn't seem out of character. No matter how The Walking Dead gets there, they need to prove that there is a reason to care about Negan beyond how well he can kill people with baseball bats... link
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 16:07:51 GMT -5
"Negan is more of a circus clown, while Gareth is one of those scary clowns in horror stories." Great comparison. The Governor was the best villain of all time, in my opinion, so it really baffles me when people ALWAYS say that he was a cake walk compared to Negan. These people have no imagination or style. I found the Governor much more dangerous, scary, intense and menacing than Negan. The Governor terrified me. Remember the scene in the barn with him and Rick? Go back re-watch that. It was an epic scene between two brilliant actors. Negan bores me. Negan has no finesse. He's just a pile shit on your door step. My daughter and I were discussing the difference between him and the other villians on the show. The others had a bit of humanity, given to them by their backstory. They were humanish. The were actual characters. It's hard to explain, I guess. But Negan is just a cartoon villian straight out of Marvel comics. My daughter said she wouldn't want a sad or touching backstory for him. Just something showing how he got to this place, at least. We were comparing him to Gareth, who was so marvelously understated yet so amazingly creepy. Negan is more of a circus clown, while Gareth is one of those scary clowns in horror stories. But JDM is acting his butt off and doing as well as can be done with what he has. When the character's mood changes is when I really see what a great job he's doing - when he goes from life of the party to suddenly serious and leans in towards Rick and says something. His whole face changes. That's when you can see Negan is dangerous.
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 16:13:05 GMT -5
"I disagree on JDM. I don't think it's just a material issue. I think it's a JDM issue too. It's all a very bad mix that does not work for me. I'm not convinced it ever will, regardless of potential backstory" I agree with you. Bad acting and bad writing. Some backstory may make the character less cartoonish and silly, but I don't see JDM has possessing that kind of depth as an actor to pull that off. I also don't think the writing team has that kind of talent. My daughter and I were discussing the difference between him and the other villians on the show. The others had a bit of humanity, given to them by their backstory. They were humanish. The were actual characters. It's hard to explain, I guess. But Negan is just a cartoon villian straight out of Marvel comics. My daughter said she wouldn't want a sad or touching backstory for him. Just something showing how he got to this place, at least. We were comparing him to Gareth, who was so marvelously understated yet so amazingly creepy. Negan is more of a circus clown, while Gareth is one of those scary clowns in horror stories. But JDM is acting his butt off and doing as well as can be done with what he has. When the character's mood changes is when I really see what a great job he's doing - when he goes from life of the party to suddenly serious and leans in towards Rick and says something. His whole face changes. That's when you can see Negan is dangerous. Definitely agree on the human aspect. 5 minutes into watching Service my partner said "JDM is playing him like a comic character. He's not human, which is what the Walking Dead used to be so good for". He is plucked out of the comic, the scene is just plucked out of the comic, there's no adjustment. He isn't human. People do not talk like that. And I think there's a problem in that he can be constantly compared to Ezekiel, who is also grand and over the top and a bit ridiculous and could also be put into 'people don't talk like that' category, but you have a scene with Ezekiel acknowledging that reality, that it is over the top, that it is a show, that he's aware of it, that it isn't all he is. It would work better with Negan I think if there were moments that showed that actually, he does put this effort into being so extreme, that it is a bit of a facade, that he isn't just that, all. the. time, he isn't just one-note. But so far that doesn't seem to be the case in any way. That apparently is just him. People are not like that; comic-book and video game characters are like that. I disagree on JDM. I don't think it's just a material issue. I think it's a JDM issue too. It's all a very bad mix that does not work for me. I'm not convinced it ever will, regardless of potential backstory.
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 16:24:28 GMT -5
"I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways. " Rick is the way he is because of everything that happened to him. It took him 2 years to find a home and went through hell after hell. Doesn't seem like Zeke went through too much and created/found his community right away. if Zeke had been on the road and ran into nutjob after nutjob trying to kill him or someone he loves for 2 years straight, he'd be half-crazy like Rick. I so wish they had combined episodes 2 and 3 to really highlight the differences between the two leaders. Negan is a tyrant who demands respect by force, while Zeke and his "subjects" are a family. And I think you bring up a good point about characters and their opposites. In the other thread, Negan was linked with Rick (and I still think it's appropriate) but you're right Zeke is also the opposite of Negan, and to a lesser point opposite of the Rick we saw in season 6. if they had combined the eps they would have had to come up with something else to fill a spot...lol but I agree they could have combined them to really highlight the differences between the two leadership styles. Although seeing a full ep all of the kingdom was a nice break from the monologues. I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways.
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 16:26:56 GMT -5
"The biggest problem I see with Negan (and this is just my opinion) is the hammy delivery of the lines and the complete lack of menace. He's too much of a cartoon character to take seriously as an actual threat. " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS. If the show did a better job of balancing the story, if many of us didnt feel starved for focus and development on the character's we've been invested in for years, and if it didnt feel as if the show was trying to rebrand itself the "walking negan" as a way to "breathe new life" into this aging dog, I might have a different take on the character. Its hard to sit back and enjoy this guy's bravado and his badness when I find myself wondering whats going on with the other characters. I wonder if that werent the case if I would find him as exhausting as I currently do. I just see negan as "in the way" for the most part in terms of the story, rather than being a critical part of it. When Michonne was introduced at the end of the 2nd season - really third season - we all knew (and I wasnt a part of the fandom at all but I still knew) that this would be a game, changing, iconic character, but she was introduced in a way which felt organic and was promoted intensely without taking everything over and were glad to see more of her as time went on. I know its not apples to apples but I cant help feel like Negan was just dumped into the story because the show is determined to keep in line with the comics as much as possible (see also: Jessick...it happened. She died, her whole family died and no fucks were given). Michonne's intro is still my favorite one of the entire show. The mystery surrounding who her character was (or the GA) and the excitement for comic fans was fantastic. I spent the summer explaining to people how awesome the character was and they couldn't wait for her to be back on screen. With Negan... not so much. I still see folks that have a lot of resentment over the cliffhanger and those that have moved past that resentment mostly ask me the same things: Does he always talk that much. Why don't his men just put a bullet in his head. Where's.. insert favorite character here. What's up with the back tilt thing? (I ask that one myself LOL) The biggest problem I see with Negan (and this is just my opinion) is the hammy delivery of the lines and the complete lack of menace. He's too much of a cartoon character to take seriously as an actual threat. Is Negan Dangerous? hell yes, but its more the power of his charisma and his ability to get the many members of his group to do what he wants that makes him dangerous. (Any time you get someone with that much charisma and have them go to the "dark side" it's never a good thing.)
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Post by gioia on Nov 19, 2016 16:31:02 GMT -5
Great point. I had the same reaction to the Carl/Negan scene. I agree. It's amazing to me how Ezekiel/Shiva/Kingdom was what most people thought was going to be cartoonish/too-over-the-top... but they handled it so well in one episode, he isn't at all. But maybe that's the point? They had one episode to introduce/flesh out that character to the audience. And they did it. Whereas they basically have given all of S7 to Negan. They're giving him too much attention with very little development aside from the "Negan" they promoted all hiatus as the most dangerous villain. After episode 1, I think everyone got how bad Negan is. But then they gave him more in 3. And 4. The audience GETS IT. He's bad. Real bad. The worst. Check. Also, in the wake of Glenn's death, I think the audience needs some TF therapy - but instead they're just getting more Negan. So, that's adding to him grinding on people, IMHO. Slightly off topic but your comment got me thinking. Yes, they want the GA to know how bad he is but then for the sake of "story" they pull him back. You mean to tell me big bad scary boogeyman Negan wouldn't seek retribution from Carl for daring to threaten him? He spent all of episode 1 breaking Rick, all of episode 3 trying to break Daryl, but he's going to put up with that behavior from a child? And yes, I know he has a special relationship with Carl in the comic, but so far I'm not seeing it on the show. The Negan the writers have presented to me is the type to smile at Carl, grab the nearest Alexandrian, make a long ass boring speech, cut off the finger of said Alexandrian, and put it in Carl's pocket. Instead, he let's Carl get away with pointing a gun at him. So writers if you want him to be the devil then make him the devil, but if he's got layers to him then show it and have them make sense.
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Post by Ripley on Nov 19, 2016 17:25:33 GMT -5
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Post by Starlight on Nov 19, 2016 17:35:54 GMT -5
I agree. It's amazing to me how Ezekiel/Shiva/Kingdom was what most people thought was going to be cartoonish/too-over-the-top... but they handled it so well in one episode, he isn't at all. But maybe that's the point? They had one episode to introduce/flesh out that character to the audience. And they did it. Whereas they basically have given all of S7 to Negan. They're giving him too much attention with very little development aside from the "Negan" they promoted all hiatus as the most dangerous villain. After episode 1, I think everyone got how bad Negan is. But then they gave him more in 3. And 4. The audience GETS IT. He's bad. Real bad. The worst. Check. Also, in the wake of Glenn's death, I think the audience needs some TF therapy - but instead they're just getting more Negan. So, that's adding to him grinding on people, IMHO. Slightly off topic but your comment got me thinking. Yes, they want the GA to know how bad he is but then for the sake of "story" they pull him back. You mean to tell me big bad scary boogeyman Negan wouldn't seek retribution from Carl for daring to threaten him? He spent all of episode 1 breaking Rick, all of episode 3 trying to break Daryl, but he's going to put up with that behavior from a child? And yes, I know he has a special relationship with Carl in the comic, but so far I'm not seeing it on the show. The Negan the writers have presented to me is the type to smile at Carl, grab the nearest Alexandrian, make a long ass boring speech, cut off the finger of said Alexandrian, and put it in Carl's pocket. Instead, he let's Carl get away with pointing a gun at him. So writers if you want him to be the devil then make him the devil, but if he's got layers to him then show it and have them make sense. That scene was joke and hilarious bad due to CR delivery/ acting....... Carl pulls a gun and Negan does nothing. But Daryl jumps out of line and attacks Negan. and Glenn pays with his life.
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Post by v on Nov 19, 2016 23:47:59 GMT -5
"I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways. " Rick is the way he is because of everything that happened to him. It took him 2 years to find a home and went through hell after hell. Doesn't seem like Zeke went through too much and created/found his community right away. if Zeke had been on the road and ran into nutjob after nutjob trying to kill him or someone he loves for 2 years straight, he'd be half-crazy like Rick. if they had combined the eps they would have had to come up with something else to fill a spot...lol but I agree they could have combined them to really highlight the differences between the two leadership styles. Although seeing a full ep all of the kingdom was a nice break from the monologues. I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways. I'm a rick fan (most days lol) and I agree with you that there are reasons for Rick being the way he is. he's lost so much, all of TF have. When people say that Negan is the "dark Mirror" (star trek nerd here) version of Rick, I tend to disagree because to me, Zeke fits that better. Rick is in between the two leadership styles.
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Post by gioia on Nov 20, 2016 3:53:21 GMT -5
"I agree with y'all that Zeke is just as much Negan's opposite as Rick is and in some ways more so. Rick is kind of the half way point between the two in a lot of ways. " Rick is the way he is because of everything that happened to him. It took him 2 years to find a home and went through hell after hell. Doesn't seem like Zeke went through too much and created/found his community right away. if Zeke had been on the road and ran into nutjob after nutjob trying to kill him or someone he loves for 2 years straight, he'd be half-crazy like Rick. I'm a rick fan (most days lol) and I agree with you that there are reasons for Rick being the way he is. he's lost so much, all of TF have. When people say that Negan is the "dark Mirror" (star trek nerd here) version of Rick, I tend to disagree because to me, Zeke fits that better. Rick is in between the two leadership styles. I'm definitely a Rick fan (he's the gold standard for me...I'm ruined for actual men lol). He is the reason I watch this show. It drives me nuts when people compare Rick to Negan. Rick is not sadistic. He doesn't enjoy torture, inflicting suffering and killing. He's always acted in defense of himself or someone he loves. He's not burning people faces and raping their wives. He's NOTHING like Negan. If Rick had found a safe haven for him and his family immediately after the turn, he'd be like Zeke (with less theatrics and tigers of course). He was a good cop and a family man. He still is. What he has had to face has made him less trusting of people, which is a good thing. But at his core, he's still a good man. Zombies didn't change that. It shows me that a good amount of people have no idea what masculinity looks like. When someone calls Rick a bitch, I know they have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old boy. Bitches aren't able to put aside their pride and ego and take abuse from a sadist in order to save an entire town. Because that's what Rick is doing. If he doesn't keep these people in line, Negan is going to kill them. That's an awful burden that has been placed on Rick's shoulders...and his ALONE. He has all the responsibility of these people's lives at his feet. Yet, short-sited overgrown children think he's being weak and is broken. Rick is an incredibly strong, masculine and brave man with a huge heart that always puts other people ahead of himself. He's first and foremost a protector. Rick is a hero. He's basically the dad to that town and all those people. I could go on and on about Rick so I'll stop here. So yeah, Rick is nothing like Negan.
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